42 replies to this topic

[Bibs]

What is a Lotus?

There's so much 'this isn't a Lotus' noise at the moment I'd like to ask what is?

Does a Lotus have to be made in Hethel? What is 'made'? Conceptualised, designed, each component manufactured, assembled?

If this is the case, who by exactly? Who makes a Lotus a Lotus?

What if an Italian head of design comes in and a few months later produces a 'Lotus' or 5, is this a Lotus or is it him carrying on with his experience from Ferrari? What about if an Italian design house sell a design to Lotus which they then built, is this a Lotus or not or should this have been called an Italdesign? Do the engineers have to be third generation Norfolk or can they come from elsewhere, what about the engine, does a 'Lotus' have to have an engine they've designed, engineered and built from from Norfolk grown billets?

What if it's put together in Hethel and doesn't have a Lotus badge? The Tesla isn't a Lotus, no? Why not, it's designed, assembled and shipped from Hethel, what can be more Lotus than that? What about all the other cars that are worked on by Lotus engineering, are they or aren't they Lotuses? Some of them have has as much input from Hethel as many cars beginning with the letter 'e'...

[ramjet]

I didn't know how to post this anywhere else, so it's getting it's own topic.
There are just too many race series threads to reply in all of them, so this is going up to ask people to explain how the hell they are thinking, because frankly, I just don't understand some people.

Lots of people on here wanted to see Lotus in car racing series of some type. Along came TF and he built some cars and was allowed to use the Lotus name.
Lots of people on here were running around, giving everyone hi-5's and raving on about how great it was to see Lotus back in F1. (As I see it, a car, then, with no Lotus input other than the name)
I am not going into how pear shaped that all went for everyone. It's covered by other threads.

Then there's Indy and LMP2 and how many other series I don't know, as I don't follow them all and there just isn't the exposure ,that I know of, here in Australia. I only know the trifle that I read on here.

So now Lotus is entered into financial arrangements with the teams that sport the Lotus name or badge on them and in every thread someone is having a bitch about them not being Lotus.

The Lotus Renault F1 team (get over it, that's what they are called!) come 2nd and 3rd. Some people are rapt about it, others are still rabbiting on about they're not Lotus, or they're not Team Lotus. They don't call themselves Team Lotus. I think you'll find a commentator may have said that.

Everyone on here says they wish for Lotus to do well and continue as a manufacturer and then some, in the very next breath, abuse what is being attempted.

I have already personally said on here that I thought that Lotus may have been stretching itself too thin over too many battlefronts, but I know jack $hit about marketing and exposure and maybe, just maybe, that is how the game is played.

To most people that watch any race series from the comfort of their lounges or from the deck of their luxury yacht in the bay at Monte Carlo, how many of you really think they (the spectators) care about who made the chassis or tightened the #13 bolt on the left hand side front suspension?

If they but a Lotus, it will be by either a love of the marque (like most of us) or by association with a name that has not been publicly represented on race tracks in a long time.

Oh and by the way, my Esprit S4 has Toyota tail lights, GM courtesy lights, a Vauxhall wing mirror control, a Renault transmission, a Repco overflow bottle cap, Lord only knows what brand battery or associated wire brand, non-original tyres and no doubt a myriad of other parts that Lotus never had one ounce of input into other than PAYING for them.

Rant over.

Now I'm going before the knives start flying out of the screen at me.

Edited by ramjet, 25 April 2012 - 12:55 PM.
Topics were merged as Bibs posted his about the same time as I posted mine. We have no financial interest in each others posts nor knowledge of same until they were posted.

[simonb]

Up until the end of 1982, I think it is quite easy to say who or what was a Lotus. I think from there it has to be "Hethel designed" to have any consistency. This probably makes the VX220 and Tesla more Lotus than some Lotuses (especially racing ones)

[DarrylV8]

well we've got 4 Lotus cars well all started life when they left Hethal as Lotus, but one has been highly modified Rover V8 engine REnault gearbox from the later T/T Esprit V8, HiSpec brakes (calipers & disc's) pads by someone else wheels drive shafts etc from the later cars; the other old one has Rover V8 engine new chassis by Spyder engineering(?) wheels from Ford
The two recent editions come out of the factory with Toyota/Yamaha engine Toyota gearbox someone else's S/C although fitted by Lotus(?) brakes by AP

To us all 4 cars are LOTUS cars! and to be honest we don't really care what others think

[Kimbers]

No Matter where the parts come from or who built them lets not forget that they were designed into the cars at Hethel. Much of the Elise panels were made in France but they were designed at Hethel and they were put together at Hethel.

Lotus is Hethel, its employees and its design creativity. Its not its Management (no matter how much I would like it to be) because that changes. Lotus is an ideal originally created by the man at the top and passed down with Pride. Lotus is pride. Pride in what it is, who does it and the love they have for it.

Overall Lotus is British. This is where they are made, designed, created. Even the Esprit. The concept came from GG but if you ask anyone involved in it at the time and there are only a couple left, they will tell you that even GG had to come to the Factory to complete the design and working models.

[Bibs]

Lotus is Hethel, its employees and its design creativity. Its not its Management (no matter how much I would like it to be) because that changes.

Don't it's employees (including designers) change then?

[molemot]

What is a Lotus?

If you have to ask the question....you will never understand the answer.

[Bibs]

Very clever Moley, you could say that of many things I'm sure.

The idea of this topic is to get people to consider their constant 'that's not a Lotus' comments by asking what is.

[LooseCannon]

This is a massive question for a forum, it could easily make a magazine article or be padded out to fill a large part of a book by some authors.

Also it needs to be said that by trying to define a car as a "Lotus" is not conferring some kind of deity on what has been produced before, a Lotus was never perfect - bob a job week build quality, cheap and nasty trim, and poor quality corrosion treatments have no excuse at the prices that have been charged and the expectations that have been built. There needs to be an appreciation of what was achieved in the past whilst acknowledging the need for improvements in some areas

All IMHO of course....... a Lotus is British; that doesn't mean ethnic cleansing in the office place, the staff, parts, engines, materials etc can come from anywhere, but the germ of an idea should have been born by a team at the manufacturing heart, which needs to be here. I don't think it matters where in Britain they are built (they have been built elsewhere than Norfolk of course), however the setup they have there would be difficult to better in terms of expansion, self sufficiency, and inspiration. Of course now it also has a bit of romance being an ex-bomber base and having so much of ACBC in the bricks and mortar.

The car should be engineering led, not marketing, forging it's own way if necessary a'la Elise. I would rather a series run of models where there were flashes of brilliance and a few mistakes were made along the way than an endless dirge of "me too" copycat mediocrity. Lotus should lead from the front

The core group of creators should be engineers and dynamicists (and stylists of course, Lotuses are pretty and elegant, they don't look like Lambo Reventons).

The cars should do more with less, as they always have done. That's not an excuse to be underpowered though (as many are) but if technology is present it should serve a purpose and be as light and un-noticable as possible. As a result of more with less the cars should be competitively priced or ideally cheaper than their contemporaries

The range should cover more bases as ACBC always intended; cater to the weekend racer, but also to the business exec who knows the difference, eg I don't think the Excel market ever went away. Where I would break with ACBCs ideals is the bare bones car , something more like the 7, should not be abandoned like he did and should be the entry level car.

I'm sure more will come to mind as the discussion continues.

[77 esprit]

The only constant is the nose badge. Some are green and yellow. Some are black. Some round. Some oval. It's the four interlocking letters honoring the founder that defines a Lotus vehicle. Additionally, some are four wheel and some two.

Are the 914, 914-6, 924, 944 and I think 968 really Porsches? None of them were built by Porsche. Yet slowly but surely their mystique has grown. They were all Porsche design. Same for Lotus!!!

Lyn

[NedaSay]

I could give one simplistic answer echoing Kimbers: it has to be either made, assembled, conceptualized or designed in Hethel! It doesn't matter who the head designer! Ergo the future Lotus Ethos is really a Lotus, the original design is from Lotus Design. The car is very likely to be built - if ever - outside the UK but it doesn't matter it's a Lotus!

Edited by NedaSay, 25 April 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[LotusX180R]

Since Dany has blurred the lines with his branding exercises it is getting harder and harder to make a simple definition.

I'll just use the PORN comparison. I can't give you a definition, but I know one when I see it.

[red vtec]

It can't be built outside the UK a Ferrari is built in Italy, so is a Lambo.

It should be built at Hethel and have the lotus DNA which is inovative engineering solutions, they are famous in car building for this.

[Exploded]

+1

Clay models from Italy and Renaults from Enstones, who don't even have a proper type number, are NO Lotus! Nor are LOLA LMPs with BMW engines... I still believe rebadging is only good on short term, but smacks into your face on long term.

No Matter where the parts come from or who built them lets not forget that they were designed into the cars at Hethel. Much of the Elise panels were made in France but they were designed at Hethel and they were put together at Hethel.

Lotus is Hethel, its employees and its design creativity. Its not its Management (no matter how much I would like it to be) because that changes. Lotus is an ideal originally created by the man at the top and passed down with Pride. Lotus is pride. Pride in what it is, who does it and the love they have for it.

Overall Lotus is British. This is where they are made, designed, created. Even the Esprit. The concept came from GG but if you ask anyone involved in it at the time and there are only a couple left, they will tell you that even GG had to come to the Factory to complete the design and working models.

Edited by Exploded, 25 April 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[s4simon]

Wow - a deep and meaningful question Bibs.

I was at another photoshoot last weekend and we had 4 new cars (Fezz, Porka, GTR and Scooby) and my 18 year old Lotus. The car still looked great - years ahead of its time, and most importantly the Esprit looks like no other car - radical in design.

Basically - The car has to have a 'Wow' factor.

Edited by s4simon, 25 April 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Dodgy]

There we go again with the Renault from Enstone, Last year it was, Yes. However... from 3rd Feb 2012 the company name was changed to 'Lotus F1 team Ltd' from the previously registered company name of ' Lotus Renault GP Limited'
It has never been named 'Lotus Renault F1 team'
Lotusrenaultgp.com just comes up as a broken link. Try LotusF1team.com
Lotus was Renault which was Benetton which was Toleman Motorsport.

It's 5 letters joined together that spell a word - Lotus. It is a word however that is being associated (however wrong or rightly) with a car manufacturer that we all love. It's a 5 letter word that is being spoken about all over the world and is bringing our much loved car manufacturer into a spotlight.
Let people think It's something to do with Lotus Cars I say! Only a moron would deliberately go out of their way to emphasize that a team that got 2nd and 3rd podiums in a race was categorically nothing to do with the car manufacturer with the same spelt name.
It's Free advertising that may even keep lotus the car manufacturer afloat FFS!

A Lotus is a mode of transport that was officially given the badge and stamp of approval by an approved board at Hethel, previous to that it would have been Colin Chapman.
A lotus is the care, knowledge and enthusiasm for the marque that has been passed down from it's conception.
A lotus is Pride and individuality, It's for people that Just know the difference!

If people see a company with the name 'Lotus' (same 5 letters as our cars) are doing well in the F1 and they stop asking "Lotus - who makes those" when they see our cars, Is that not a good thing?

If for some reason you cannot bring yourself to call the the F1 team by it's Legally official name, just say the 'ex-****** team' be it Renault, Benetton or Toleman when referring to it, This should stop any more unnecessary bickering so we can get on with what is important.. the love of the manufacturer at Hethel and their awesome cars

[ramjet]

I got the team name wrong Dodgy, so thanks for the correction, but I'm with you. Couldn't give a fat rats ar$e where the cars are made or who they were bought from etc etc etc ad infinitum.

The name is out there and getting exposure which prompts people to ask questions.

And this is all good for Lotus.

[73JPS]

On the issue of personnel change: a company, having its own unique culture, likely inculcates replacement employees in that culture. I would thus postulate that employee turn-over is not a major issue in determining the DNA (in this case "Lotus-ness") of a product. Unless all the employees change at once, I suppose .

Edited by 73JPS, 26 April 2012 - 01:45 AM.

[Roger the Dodger]

It's easy, a Lotus is the only car with a soul.

[Kimbers]

Don't it's employees (including designers) change then?

Yes, they believe in and use the same values. And FYI many employees have been there for a very very long time and are proud its British....aren't you?

Are we coming back to this discussion because you believe its going to move?