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JG220 last won the day on March 14

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    Elise Cup250

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  1. Lots of cups in here from a trip to spa last week
  2. I still think there is a less than 1% chance of a no-deal/Hard (call it what you want) Brexit next week. It's everything thereafter we need to worry about (on both sides of the debate).
  3. The debates though on recent 100k signatures have amounted to little more than a question in parliament. Look at how successful the top 10 have been (0-10 in case you don’t want to click the link)
  4. And it didn’t get much traction.
  5. Its about more than Brexit though isn' t it. its now all about their own personal prospects. No one really believes in anything. Bit depressing really .
  6. I can’t remember three days in a row like these in parliament.
  7. All good points. I still think that the benefits outweigh those clear issues and downsides. The ammemdment selection for tonight is very interesting! - 2nd referendum made it through despite 100 MPs agains it - Preventing May from bringing her deal back again also made it through.
  8. Steve, I run a medium size software & systems integration business. I’ll try a short answer on Europe: I believe in Europe, the reasons it came about and what it stands for. It has held us to account in ways which we had seemed unable to (EHS, working directives, the environment more generally, fiscal regulation and so on and so on. The fact we are putting all European directives into British law points to that. I accept we might repeal some of them in future if we seek less alignment with the EU). Fundamentally as a nation we have agreed with the vast majority of the European mission evidenced by our voting rates and the use of our veto. European collaboration can rival the US and the now rapidly emerging superpower of China. Whether that is in space, in military, in IT, in finance, in the automotive sector and many others. I like working with our European colleagues and I speak 3 languages (well, alright, two fluently and just about get away with the other) joined up working, in the same conditions, without friction helps towards collaboration and success. Our most successful delivery teams (back to the job for a moment) are the most diverse, in experience, in thought, in gender, in ethnicity and so on. Diversity breeds performance and so I believe in free movement as an enabler (it can be done outside of Europe too, its just harder) to our prosperity. It is imperfect, all good things are. Overly beaurocratic, inefficient, slow to change. I accept all those things. I also think that the good outweighs all the bad by a factor of many. Fundamentally i’m embarrassed that when we have some significant issues in our nation to solve, child poverty, knife crime, the higher edu system (and schools more generally at the moment - £10 per student per year for all their kit is a discrace), House of Lords reform, the NHS, our defence spending, our critical national infrastructure we will have wasted not only the money (the £2b above) but the time and the energy on something which increasingly looks like will be a slightly less good position than we were in before.
  9. I actually think that Europe would welcome Britain ‘back’ (given that it hasn’t left) with open arms. It would be a very strong message to the general rising of far right anti-European (just to be clear I’m not calling brexiteers far right) sentiment in Europe. I agree though that it causes all sorts of issues. It certainly needs another vote, the result of which would be far from clear. I’m personally hoping for a long extension. 2-4 years? Something like that, to have time to start again (and spend another £2B. /Rolls eyes) and end up with a BRINO or no Brexit at all (so long as that is what was voted for in a new vote). Or they vote for May’s deal and lets just be done with it. We can reintegrate later.
  10. This is just as interpretative as your accusations of my postings. $1T of assets have been moved out of London since the Brexit process started (that’s about %10) On the other hand, Fintech investment is at all time high and that’s brilliant for us. So it’s probably a bit more mixed that your statement. None if this is black and white. I’m very happy to celebrate the successes, but just imagine how much further on we would be if we had not spent £2b on Brexit. I wouldn’t underestimate the other European nations either, and certainly wouldn’t couch them in those terms. Germany and France especially.
  11. You’re right, I perhaps haven’t responded to all your points. I try and hit the high nails. With most of my responses i try to back up with evidence (apart from where I have already done so). No doubt there is intepretation, in the same way that you do, but perhaps i was goading a little with my extrapolation to an illegal referendum. Remember though, that the result would have been challenged if it had not been advisory. At which point we’d have probably all referred to it as the unlawful referendum. Back to your first point though about the nature of Brexit. I don’t understand your view. At the softer end of Brexit (CU, ECJ etc) you might as well remain, as its just a less good position. Still can’t sign up external trade deals, probably have to accept free movement and so on, don’t have a say in Europe, lose our benefits. Arguments which liter this thread. Leaving for the sake of leaving, and becoming a sudo-European state makes no sense to me. On your last point, which i think i understand. There are a set (whether you agree with them or not) of predictions of what happens in a range of Brexit scenarios. You’ll recall on the first attempt at May’s deal last year, Hammond even briefed Parliament that the UK would be slightly less well off than if we remained in Europe, but would be much better than the consequences of a no deal. Are you suggesting that we shouldn’t take notice of those? And to anyone that says that you only need to look at the current economic position to see that the predictions were wrong, well last time i looked we were still in Europe.
  12. I didn’t say which side acted unlawfully. It is however true that only the Leave campaign (or elements of Leave - there were multiple organisations) have so far been found to have acted unlawfully. i think you’re probably right, there is moral question over the leaflets and so on from Remain. I actually think they not only objectionable but also unhelpful. Some of the rhetoric wasn’t helpful either, on both sides.
  13. In that case you misunderstood. It was an advisory referendum, which both main parties decided they needed to respect. Respecting the decision to leave could be interpreted all the way from Brexit in name only all the way through to a hard, no deal exit. The protagonists in every option will say ‘well we’ve left’, thus fitting your defintion. Add in the issue of a land mass border which got ignored in the original debate and its unsurprising that no compromise in that spectrum can be found.
  14. That's not correct. It was the electoral commission who identified illegal activity in the process. The only reason the referendum itself cannot be challenged is that it was advisory. It was then, as you say, 2017 manifesto to enact it. Your argument through these pages is that you knew what you were voting for in the referendum and now it needs to be enacted. That isn't what the manifesto offers, if that is the new line of argument you wish to take.
  15. Quoting myself, but this is exactly what has happened. 3rd meaningful vote to occur next week. Let's see if the ERG lose their nerve. I still don't think she has the numbers though, as remain rebels are likely to move from voting for her deal this week to wondering if there isn't a 'better' outcome now on the cards.
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