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Ccd

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About Ccd

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    Ccd
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    Audi TT RS
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    Washington, DC

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  1. I want to thank everyone for the responses they have given to my questions over the years. To be clear, I came here to learn more about Lotus, not to bash Lotus. If anyone cares, here are my final conclusions. I asked about fit and finish, not reliability because the issues with the Evora have been fit and finish, not reliability. My sense is that these issues have improved over time and was looking for confirmation of that. I would buy a Lotus without a dealer near me. However, I would NOT buy a new Lotus with no dealer near me. My hat is off to those who are willing to drive 3-5 hours to get to the dealer, but that is simply not something I’m willing to do for a new car. I’ve gone back and forth over the years about cars that I would be happy with. And to be honest, I’ve tried to disqualify the Lotus, but it keeps coming back on my shopping list. There are two cars that I am actively watching prices on: one is the Evora 400 (the GT is frankly too new to have any used examples on the market) and the other car is NOT German (NSX). I get the impression that I have tried the patience of some people here, but it takes time to get comfortable with the idea of buying and owning a Lotus and I doubt that I am unique in that regard. Best of luck to everyone.
  2. C8RKH: You think so little of me. IF I was going German, it would be either the MB AMG GT S or a 991.2 911 GTS (with a manual). As for this thread, given that the closest dealer is 3 hours from me, I was looking for confirmation that reliability has steadily improved with the Evora and is largely a non-isssue at this point. My concern is not trivial: there are plenty of stories here and elsewhere of owners who have had fit and finish issues with the Evora.
  3. Here is what I have seen here and elsewhere. You get a Lotus, particularly one brand new, and you spend months getting it sorted out. Generally not major issues, but a bunch of small issues, many of which should never have gotten out of the factory. After hassling with your dealer and Lotus, things do get sorted and the car is fine thereafter. That HAS to change. Such a scenario might work if you can get your car to the Lotus factory, but if you live across the pond, this is just not acceptable. Even for a US used car, it is unacceptable because any purchaser of a used Lotus has to wonder if everything was sorted out or whether the owner just gave up and decided to sell the car. This thread is really directed to new car owners and asking if this has changed, hopefully for the better.
  4. Here is where I come down on Lotus’ future: it doesn’t matter. While there has been FAR too much secrecy surrounding new models, one thing is pretty clear: the new models will in all likelihood be a departure from existing models. If you value what the existing models represent, the new models are going to be a lot more than updates to existing models. These new models are going in a different direction and if you care for the current lineup, you probably won’t like it. I’d love to be wrong, but I just don’t envision the new models carrying forward past Lotus values intact.
  5. My sense is that the fit and finish issues have steadily improved each year on the Evora. My question is whether people are experiencing issues with the latest version (at least for the USA) or have they finally ironed everything out?
  6. I’ve looked long and hard at Lotus and have reluctantly come to the conclusion that I either can’t justify a Lotus or could only justify purchasing one at a steep discount. The reasons all come back to a failure to see any commitment by Lotus to its current lineup. I’m not expecting multi-million dollar ad campaigns, that is not realistic. However, I do expect a decent webpage. I don’t expect to wait days or weeks for parts on a $100,000 car. I do expect Lotus to have a press car that rides the auto show market in the USA, especially in major markets where they have no presence like Washington, DC. I would expect that perhaps select Volvo dealerships would be chosen to expand the dealership coverage in the USA which is spotty at best. When I don’t see any of this AND their newest car is a multi-million dollar electric, unlike anything in the current lineup, I’m concerned that Lotus is going to pivot in an entirely new direction and leave it’s old lineup in the dust. That would not entail much pain the the US market. There are a limited number of dealerships, all of whom primarily sell some other make and Lotus sells around 150 cars each year here. The cost wouldn’t be that great. The Geely purchase assured Lotus’ survival, but so far there is little indication that its future includes its current cars and that raises concerns about the level of support that will be provided for those cars in the future.
  7. Before I start, yes I have complained about this before and I’m going to do it again. The Washington, DC auto show is taking place right now in my nation’s capital. Just read that this is the 5th largest auto show in the country and Lotus is nowhere to be found. Hard to sell cars when people don’t even know you exist! On my side of the pond, you get the distinct impression that Lotus considers the Evora a lost cause and is unwilling to spend resources to promote the car. All of their money is being saved for what comes next. I’d like to consider an Evora for my next car, but it is very hard to do. First, I’d have to drive 2-3 hours just to test drive one. Second, I’d never buy a new one because I’m not driving 2-3 hours for warranty repairs or haggling with Lotus for reimbursement for warranty repairs made by 3rd parties. This could easily be addressed by Lotus negotiating a deal with a local repair shop to accept warranty repairs and give people considering the car confidence that there was someone local who could do the repairs. Third, I’m concerned about the level of support Lotus will offer for its current lineup once it transitions to their new cars. So I will be attending the auto show this year. Guess I will be looking at all the Lotus alternatives, which is a shame.
  8. The things Lotus has going for it are limited numbers and it is a VERY different car from the C8. But to your point, I follow Evora prices here in the US and a 2017 Evora 400 is just now dipping below $70,000. That same money would get you a 2020 C8 with $10,000 in options. I know which one I want (Evora), but the C8 complicates the decision making process because of its value proposition. I also follow used car prices and, so far, I see little impact of the C8 on that market. One potential first victim may be the Audi R8. Prices for these cars have been going up in the used car market, particularly for the V10 version with a manual. The next likely victim is the NSX where I expect the depreciation curve to get steeper. On the other hand, the market has not been kind to the NSX, new or used. Not sure how much room there is for it to get even worse. The interesting comparison is with Porsche. A 2017 911 Carrera GTS is still north of $100,000. Personally, it would be hard for me to choose a 2-3 yr old 911 GTS over a high spec C8 for even money. The major thing going for the Porsche is that I can still get it with a manual. Used car prices for a 2017 NSX and Porsche 2017 911 GTS are pretty much the same. You would think that people would rush to buy up the more exotic NSX, but that is not the case. My guess as I’ve said before is that people will continue to buy the 911 over the much cheaper C8. Maybe the higher performance models of the C8 will change that calculus, but I doubt it. Getting back to Lotus, they make few cars. Despite that, there are plenty of new 2018 Evoras on the US market and no shortage of 2017s either. I see no reason or indication that the Evora GT will do any better in this market. Like the NSX, the market in the US has not been kind to Lotus and like the NSX, there may not be much room for it to get any worse. Assuming the coming Lotus cars will represent a significant departure from the current lineup, the best play from a value perspective would be a 2-3 year old high spec Evora GT or perhaps getting a good deal on a high spec press car. If any Lotus is going to go up in value in the US, it would be a high spec Evora GT (manual of course).
  9. The move to a mid-engined format was necessary for the Corvette. The Vette is the classic mid-life crisis car or “old man” car in the US and the demographics of their customers backs that up. They had to appeal to a younger audience and the classic front engine/RWD car was not going to do that. I think GM made the calculation that their faithful would not abandon them for going mid-engine, but that such a car would open up their market to make an appeal to the younger set. My guess is that they are probably right. My guess is also that we won’t have any good indication until the second year of production because the faithful have already sold out the allocation for the first year. In the second year, we will get an indication of appeal beyond their existing base. The change to mid-engine design hardly caught anyone by surprise. There have been rumors of this car for over 20years. I think the question was never whether they would do it, but rather when they would. The surprise is that they finally made it! Some of the faithful won’t like it, but there are plenty of C7s for them to buy at a serious discount due to the C8. Lots of C7s on dealer lots because everyone was waiting to order the C8. If you wanted a front engine RWD Vette now is the time to buy that car. The prices for new or nearly new C7 are ridiculously low.
  10. I’ve been giving this thread some thought and would like to refine my prior comments. I think this is probably an OK time to buy an Evora despite the imminent availability of the C8. My reasoning is that the Lotus is the most different of all the cars in the segment. About the only thing the Evora and the C8 have in common is a mid-engine layout and a trunk behind the engine. Their approach to driving and performance is VERY different. The Lotus will appeal to the iconoclast who doesn’t want to drive a Porsche. Can’t see the C8 changing that calculus. As for the rest of the competition, I suspect it will come down to their fan base. Porsche has a dedicated following and I can’t see the typical Porsche buyer getting a C8 over a new (or used Porsche). At most, it may moderate some of the ridiculously high used car prices for Porsches. If you exclude the $200,000 plus market (eg, Lambo, McLaren, Ferrari, etc) because a large part of that market is exclusivity, then you are left with a relatively small number of cars that could be impacted. All of those cars have one thing going for them that could protect them from the C8: small numbers. For example, I would argue that the NSX and R8 could take the biggest hit from the C8, but there just aren’t many of these car on the market, new or used. And rarity plays a big role in pricing. Apart from being very different, the production numbers for Lotus are very low as well. So I’ve changed my mind on this one. I looked at the layout and thought that the car could really impact the market. But the only maker with numbers large enough to clearly to impacted is Porsche and I seriously doubt that their owners will be tempted by the Vette. Everyone else just doesn’t make enough cars or have enough used models on the market to make a major impact likely. So I do think buying a Lotus right now will be just fine.
  11. Liquid: My comments were not directed at Lotus, but any sports/supercar under around $150,000 and maybe under $200,000 once more powerful variants of the C8 are available. The impact of the C8 could be huge or negligible or something in between. Nobody really knows. The best argument for Lotus feeling few effects of the C8 is that Lotus sells so few cars in the US that it just won’t matter; the Lotus buyer follows the beat of a different drummer which is why they are in a Lotus instead of a Porsche (or a C8 or that matter).
  12. I have not seen the car in person. I’m told that the car looks better in person. Looking forward to seeing the car at the Washington, DC auto show in April (would be great if Lotus was there as well. Hint, hint. FYI, the greater Washington, DC area is a huge car market and Lotus is about the only company not here). We can argue about execution, but the basic layout emulates much more exotic fare at a fraction of the price. The Vette has always been a bargain in the sports car market, but the old front engine layout did not resemble much of its competition. Now it does. Will that sway buyers? I don’t know. My guess is that the first year allocation is mostly Corvette people. You can see low prices on 2019 C7s because a lot of people were waiting to order the C8. After the first year of production, assuming few problems with the car (not a forgone conclusion), and they are seen on the road, will the C8 tempt 911 owners??? My best guess would be no. A 911 may not offer much in terms of exclusivity, but it does offer prestige that the Vette will lack. The Achilles heel of the Vette will be exclusivity and prestige. Chevy will make a lot C8s and will lack the prestige of more expensive competitors. However, my guess is that the C8 could have a big impact on the used car market where buyers are more price conscious. Part of the justification for buying a used sports/super car that you avoid the depreciation of the new car. But what if the C8 upends used car prices??? Let me speak for myself. I’m following the used sports/supercar market. The Evora is on my shopping list, but so is the C8. The C8 makes it hard for me to justify buying a used Evora 400. As for other cars? Why would I consider a 5-year old R8 which would still cost more than the C8 and that isn’t even the V10! Used car prices on Porsches have been traditionally higher than most other makes, but again, why would I consider a 3-4 year old (991.1) Carrera S for the same money as a brand new C8??? So getting back to the topic of this thread, I would not assume this is the right time to buy the Evora. I’d wait to see what the fallout from the C8 really is.
  13. At least in the US market, this may not be the time. The reason is simple: C8 Corvette. There is a great deal of uncertainty as to the impact of the new Vette on the US sports car market. What we know is that the first year allocation is nearly sold out. What we don’t know is whether these cars were sold to Vette people or whether customers crossed over from other makes. I’m sure someone will argue that the Lotus is very different and that is true, but it is also true that one can easily get a well equipped Vette for $20,000 less than the starting price of the Lotus EVora GT and about the same as a two year old Evora 400. Will that cost differential be the difference for buyers? I don’t know. What I do know is that we will have a much better idea of the impact of the Vette on Porsche, Lotus, etc in 1-2 years and a more informed decision could be made at that time.
  14. In the US, it will probably be the Evora GT, basically a federalized GT 410 Sport
  15. Pitts: The market has spoken. Raw cars such as the current lineup do not sell in sufficient numbers for Lotus to survive. If you want the last great analogue cars Lotus is likely to produce, pick among the current line of cars. The car scheduled for next year is likely to straddle the line between today’s cars and where Lotus intends to go next which appears to be electric and much more luxurious.
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