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Waitey

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About Waitey

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    Stephen
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    Alpina D3, Caterham, Mini JCW
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  1. I never got to follow this up. I got a long way down with a certain dealer to buy a 380 CUP they had managed to source me by selling their babies first smile to the devil. It was getting pushier and pushier until I said 'sod this' if its so in demand sell it to someone else. I went home that night from work, sat on eBay, bought myself another toy, this time a race car, and have had some good old times at the back end of the year on track days. Fast forward to the 15th and I get a call from somebody at Lotus saying ''we've made a CUP430 want to buy one?''. I turned them down, since going racing next year seems now, more appealing to me. Yesterday while on Holiday in Bosnia my favourite dealer called me up, apologised for being a 'total arse' in the summer and said they could source 5 (yes 5!) CUP380's now at a discount I won't state. They did still want me to spend £2k to make it quiet enough for a track day though. I guess that is the end of my journey now. I'll race next year then probably lust over the CUP910 or where ever we've gotten too while fielding calls for the cancelled CUP680 orders.
  2. Jokke is allowed to have all the expectations he wants. He's compared the 380 Sport data with the data from his V6S pre KT430 and has found that the the 380 Sport is left wanting. The performance timings from the mags using both press cars and customer cars are off too (0-200kph being a long way from where lotus places the car). Along with people's anecdotal experience from road performance too esp when side by side with competitor products of similar power with much more mass. At the minute you are one of the few people saying oh it's fine against the growing consensus that there may well be an issue with over spinning and not cooling the output of a charger that is already at its volumetric efficiency.
  3. Good to see Janspeed still can't make an exhaust. Also look at the size of the bypass line, that must be 1.75"? Thats bloody small. No wonder you can't run them in quite mode all the time!
  4. Can someone test one and take into account slew rate? I bet the difference in recorded vs what Lotus say is down to something called “slew rate”. I am indebted to Paul Cronin (sometime PPC contributor) for the info on slew rates and how the Industry tests their engines. If the engine is accelerating, some of the engine power goes into driving the flywheel, crankshaft, dyno shaft, etc. This reduces the power available at the load cell on the dyno. Once the engine stops accelerating the power goes up because the losses from accelerating the engine are no longer there. In the motor industry the norm is to hold the load until everything has stabilised and then record the power. A step test in fact with about 30 seconds between steps. Due to the charger on these engines, I bet lotus accelerate the engine before adding the load, getting a higher bhp ready than a normal run up run.
  5. Like Dave said, manufacturers will use an engine dyno in a lovely dyno cell. A world away from strapping a physical car to a dyno. Hub dyno's are the next best, as they take the interaction of the tyre and the rollers out of it. These are rare though, A) becuase they are a faff, B) they are harder to manipulate. Loads of makes have issues when the transition from engine cell to roller dyno is made. Jag being one of them. The F Type V6 and V6S should put out 340bhp and 380bhp respectively, put them both on a dyno and they'll both put out 350ish bhp. Leaving a lot of V6S owners pissed off. Jag to this day say there is still a 40bhp difference while in an engine cell.
  6. Insert other media He had some solid points though. Just ignoring him because he's upset people on the internet isn't really a valid reason! I think everyone just assumed the GT4 would be compared to the 380 Sport/360 Cup cars. The 350/V6S would be more aimed against the Cayman/Boxster S as far as relative performance go. Well until you look at the newer 718 Turbo S' they've moved the performance game on a fair bit, albeit losing all joyus sound in the process. I've not seen an 380 on a dyno, but there are plenty of V6S', Evora 400's and Evora 410's not making the numbers, so when you see a 400 not making 390ps when it has a charge cooler, you've got to worry about the 380! Not making the numbers can directly affect how they drive though, I feel it's what may be generating to seeming lack of mid range from a 380 over a normal V6S. It'd be good to see what charge temps you get from a 380 before and after say 10 runs on a dyno. Like I said in my first post, Porsche power figures are all over the place too so its not just a Lotus only issue. I had a crack at building up a Seadoo Rotax race engine for my old jet ski. They are dinky 3 pot 1.5l motors with a Rotrex type charger dropped off the back of them. Once finished it'd run 310bhp at 7100rpm cold, take it for a run out for 30 mins, get it warm and it'd give you 150 more RPM since Rotax ecu's are odd, but it'd only put put 280bhp. Inlet temps in the cold run were around 25deg, on the hot run they could see over 90deg. Fair old difference. Then Rotax made a fancy integral charge cooler/inlet manifold. After that you could put out 310 all day, as seawater has the benefit of being sodding cold in England. Although what is confusing is @alias23car's performance behind the Komotec 460 car. Maybe the 350ps output is the sweet spot for this little motor! @Wilbert Camshaft made some interesting points in the other thread we aren't allowed to talk about. My findings: · Gear ratios and · Total drag The Exige Sport 350 (with the exception of 1 gear) has substantial longer gear ratios than the GT4 (axle ratio and gear ratio combinded), in % 1. Gear -3,80% 2. Gear 4,98% 3. Gear 3,30% 4. Gear 6,54% 5. Gear 14,69% 6. Gear 10,45% Besides, the aerodynamic drag of the Exige Sport 350 is considerably higher than drag of the GT4 (cw x frontal area) Exige (0,44 x 1,7) 0.748 GT4 (0,32 x 2,0) 0,64 So, the aerodynamic drag of the Lotus Exige 350 is 16,87% higher than that of the GT4 – the higher the speed, the stronger the impact What's interesting is, the longer gear ratio's teamed with the lower revlimit (7000 vs 7600) along with rear wheel sizes give nearly equal road speed in each gear bar first. It will be interesting to see what affect the shortened final drive has on his lap times. Drag was also an interesting point, maybe something for Lotus to look at for the Exige replacement. Chasing a more slippery car while retaining the down force.
  7. I wasn't knocking your point, I was just giving the reason behind it. I'm much rather a track engine last.
  8. @C8RKH The Toyota unit is reliable. It should be! It only just pushes past the specific output of 100bhp/litre with a supercharger fitted! Its hardly stressed. The 2.0 diesel in my work car has a specific out put of 105bhp/litre and its from the last decade! As a side note, the first iteration of a 2GR V6 in the Camary had an issue of spinning crank barings. I guess this was put to bed before Lotus used the engine.
  9. Interesting thread. For a good comparison we sadly have to live in a different parallel universe. One where GT products from Porsche aren't used as an investment vehicle because of the daft fact we have no capital gains tax on cars... In that world a GT4 with the obligatory £10k of options would be £76400. It'd be against at 380 sport with its obligatory (don't tell me these don't count...) £3k in options, making it around £72600. In that world where both cars were readily available you'd see lots of GT4's on track every weekend at all the great circuits being enjoyed and you'd see some 380's ran by the Lotus fans of the world. That's kind of the sad long and short of it. The GT4 is more polished which does take some of its charm away but it is genuinely good at everything. In the real world, they just aren't comparable. Not due to the merits of the cars, more due to the fact the GT4 has another merit and that is the potential for cash generation. I've done the man maths a lot, I have spreadsheets and spreadsheets comparing all sides of it, I still feel it would be cheaper for me to run a GT4 for 12 months and 5 track days than it would for me to do the same in a 380 Sport. Which I find interesting but I can't get over paying over £15k more than list for a car that is over 24 months old. The Cayman GT4 market in the UK is f**ked for want of a better word, there are nearly 50% of the UK's allocation for sale at anyone time. All not being used. One of my friends was lucky enough to be on the list to get one at the start. He spec'd it out, it was nearly £84k on delivery, thing is it was never delivered. He let the dealer show it for 2 months, at which point it was sold for £121k. £37k of income and no tax to pay on it. You can see why it happened and is still happening. Everyone is glumly hanging in for people to start using them, and then the rare few low mileage ones to rise again. Lotus has its place and always will, its just not at the same table of Porsche. They share the fact they can be driven on track, after that they sit in a completely different segment. The Lotus could be better as I've talked about in my other thread, it isn't going to be though. Does that stop me loving it for what it is, no it does not. Does it make me happy it exists, yes it does. Also the quote the banned man: both cars brakes are limited by tyres I would say. GT4 brakes are from the 991 GT3 RS so the car has so much braking power it's untrue. let not pretend Lotus get anywhere near their weight or BHP where the GT4 will make more BHP than Porsche quote. there are flaws on both platforms as race cars as both are made as road cars, so it's always a battle when both cars understeer like a dog out the box ! I feel this is totally true. The early V6S' were heavier than you'd expect but did make their power on most occasion unless one had decided to have a 6600rpm soft limiter for no reason. The 380's can't make their power repeatable due to intake temps but they are about right weight wise. Although the Dry vs Wet weight is always a balls up. Just tell me what a car weighs with all its fluids and ZERO fuel. Its not hard car makers, so do it. Also stop giving me the weight of a car with sod all options on. I could be 12 stone, but I'm not because I came with the option which means I love pizza and roast dinners like 99% of men. As for the Cayman GT4 units power, most put out between 310-350bhp on a hub dyno. Which is a fair old swing. Thats about 350-400bhp at the fly. Ironically its always the higher mileage ones making the power.... Also its worth nothing that the standard map in a GT4 actually limits power over 5000rpm (gives you a nice torque curve mind). If you map out these limits you'll see 400bhp all day long with a more 'interesting' delivery lets say. Oddly I've not seen a Exige on a hub dyno yet, I guess due to it confusing the traction control, which is a shame as some of the quote 'at the fly' figures using run down have been bollocks. Some have been upwards of 18% trans loss with weirdly high intake vs ambient temps.
  10. Hi Dave, I dropped you an E mail a few days back I think. I'd be good to come have a look.
  11. Waitey

    Waitey

  12. Ha I had a T350T don't you know..... I only paid £18200 for it when it had 6000 miles on it. Car market was less mental back then..... I'll keep looking. I managed to pop into Oakmere yesterday and I really liked the dark blue 380 sport they had, it almost looked dare I say it, classy....
  13. Hi Mick, Hielsa was my English version of the sound of the Kanji the garage used. I was working down in Kagoshima for an agricultural company so sadly my translator wasn't much use when it came to engines. The garage were putting these engines into spaceframes for a certain race series on the south island. Some of the specs were pretty interesting, including one using bike carbs so I could be fitted into a classic Corolla! From what I could glean the spec of the 390bhp unit were: Forged con rods which were slightly longer 48mm throttle bodies Solid lifter conversion using the standard bucket with a shim under it Some cam re grinds I didn't see a head off a car, but I assume there will be some head work in there. It'd be an interesting project to get an old 2GR unit and set about it. I thing £7k thrown at one would give you a safe 380bhp N/A motor.
  14. Bloody hell Will, How are you? I'm still on CS, not owned one for 9 years now though.... As for the 360 CUP's they are on my radar too. Not many appear though.
  15. Hello All, First post in here. This may come across as a bit contentious but I hope you stick with it. My car history over the last 12 odd years is an odd and varied mix, classic Range Rovers to F types, Mini Cooper S GP's to Caterham's. I've had 3 'modern era' TVR's too so I'm quite well versed on the jumped up kit car debate... What is going on with Lotus and more to the point the Exige brand at the moment? I'm in the lucky enough position at the moment like most are on here for justifying neigh on £80k on a toy. Now at the moment Lotus is the only place to get to get a 2 seat usable track car with a roof and some storage place. This supply to a niche area of the market which looks pretty sown up (Bar the Cayman GT4 but I'll cover that later) should breed the mother of all progress but there seems to be elements of this which are getting lost by the way side. The next part is just my opinion of where Lotus so far have not hit the mark for me. Model line up: Stacking the 350 Sport, 380 Sport and 380 CUP over an 18 month period just doesn't make sense. The changes between the 3 not being significant enough as well as skirting round the main issues with the Exige package. This close stacking seems to have rendered the dealers into a position where they have to hold stock which is quickly (in car terms) outdated or confusing to a new purchaser. The small changes Lotus have made to the Exiges through production (losing of the storage nets etc) can instantly age a car at a dealer. Its as that point when you work some chassis numbers back that some of the un reg'd 350 Sports at dealers are getting on for 14 months old, there are now 380's on the ground which are getting on for 9 months old. I'd expressed an interest in the 380 Cup direct to Lotus to be told they were all sold, over the next 3 weeks I've been offered 4 cars dealers have took on with no planned purchaser. This isn't like an odd cancelled order, dealers seem expected to take stock on hold. I can imagine what this costs dealers on bridge finance. Fundamental Exige issues: The engine.... now there isn't anything wrong with the 2GR. In fact its a good unit. In Japan I was lucky enough to have a look at a Hielsa unit. Basically a 2GR with forged lightened rods, individual throttle bodies, solid cam followers and a nice set of manifolds, these units product circa 380-400bhp n/a with a 8100rpm limit. The unit has lots of potential. Hell Toyota will even sell you a 320bhp version n/a! What I struggle with is the fact Lotus kept the log manifolds with integral cats along with not fitting the charge cooler to the charger. The manifolds are terrible for flow as well as heat management, the work behind changing them for re classification for road use isn't insurmountable, a generic cat could be used down stream with no ill effects (might warm your luggage up a bit more). Next is the lack of a charge cooler whether air to air or water to air like the Evora. Now I don't buy the weight/COG/packaging argument. When you are the ones making the clams, fitting it in shouldn't be an issue. The COG would actually be lowered with a water/air set up with an underslung pump and rad set up. As for weight, there would be a 9kg 'dry' (why does Lotus always use dry) weight penalty, but for the possibility of A) running more power and B) achieve that power on a circuit it has got to be a no brainer. Instead Lotus seem to have gone down the route of over spinning a charger already on its volumetric limit and then fudging the rev limit. I've been following what @Jokke Vlo has said with interest. The heat generated by overspinning the charger on the 380 seems to be losing it the torque benefit it should have over a normal V6S/350 in the mid range. To gain no real straight line/corner exit benefit on track is a bit of a sod. A few calculations using volume, charger peak speed and swept displacement of the engine gives you a figure of around enough air being delivered for 470bhp (Not far off what Komotec are showing, good work Komotec) for a 2GR unit on its current charger, if and this is a big IF you can keep on top of charge temps and have an efficient way of evacuating the cylinders. Looking at the current Lotus map there seems to be a lot of fuel used for cylinder cooling on both the 350 and 380. Suspension .... long argued that a road set up and a track set up should be no cost options not a track pack, esp when the track set up could do with a slight tweak to the valving. Gearbox - They fixed the shift! YAY. One of the mean reasons I didn't buy an launch V6S. Why isn't there an LSD option yet? Yes its 11kg more, but its low down in the car and when you are operating with 300lb/ft you could get away with a narrower tyre on the rear with one, which would gain you some of that weight back. Build quality - lets be honest its come on leaps and bounds but the fundamentals still get missed. As @Mark030358 is experiencing. Also why can't you mount a carbon seat to a solid tub with out it moving? Lack of competition: This seems to be a hindrance now, allowing corners to be cut and cars cheapened. Yes the £/€ rate has gone to pot, but I'd be interested to know how much of the Exige has EU origins apart from the chassis and associated metal. The Cayman GT4 - Its list price with the usual £10k options giving a £75-78K road price kind of shows the 380 up, not the 350 though. Now I've come close to owning one 3 times now (its a VERY good car). But I've been stopped each time by the same reasons that seem to be dogging a lot of track car makers now... Porsche told me not to use it, not to use it on track, not to photograph it on track or even on the bloody road.... Plus paying £88k for a car that was £73k 2 years ago sits badly with me. Oddly Caterham have also fallen into this trap, when selling mine I was advised to take down any photo's I had online of it on track to help it sell. Its a sodding track car. No one seems to have stepped into the breach of small track car make. As a side I tried a Viper ACR in the US, hell of a thing but its about £150k landed in the Uk without the tax man getting involved. Dealers: I've had two good experiences so far, one with Silverstone Lotus and the other with Oakmere (albeit via email as I've been a bit busy) but you get the overriding sense that operating for Lotus is hard work, they seem to have to carry stock on their books while trying to talk down supply and talk up demand. Other dealers have flatly refused to trying an do a workable deal, standing behind the Lotus says list price or no go line. When they have pre reg cars on their courts with neigh on 20% off whilst still carrying the finance deals as the new ones. Never have I found it so hard to spend my money. On the face of it the Cup 380 is the car for me, but, it being too loud for most UK track is a ball ache, here's your new £85k car, and here's the bill for £1900 so you can use it on circuit. Other than that though it seems to make the best out of what Lotus has to offer. There is the niggle though that a 350 with Nitrons, Komotec 460 and some of the US aero would be a better car..... but it has none of the residual value and I've thrown enough cash away over the years on things where they've sat on the drive with pound coins falling out of them (NEVER buy a V8 Jag F type.....). I love Lotus as a brand, I'm just afraid of where it has gone recently and where it may go in the future. Its the only manufacturer in a segment I want to buy into. Yes there are issues I've not explored too. I'm sure the NHTSA in the USA removing the exemption for Lotus to sell the Elise and Exige as new cars in the US will have hurt and potentially led to some of the penny pinching we seem today. Where do I go from today, I don't know. I'll probably see a CUP 380 and have to have it. After all loving cars makes you daft/fickle....
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