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Everything posted by eUKenGB

  1. Do we yet have ANY idea about price and/or towing capacity?
  2. Can I hold you to that Bibs? 😄
  3. Lotus still seem to be the only company that is this far down the line with a new car and yet has said NOTHING about price. Obviously deliberate, but serves no useful function whatsoever and in my opinion is totally counter productive. One can hazard a guess at most new cars, just based on a company's previous offerings. But Lotus are in the £50K - £2m range which makes it impossible to guess. Is it simply arrogance and they are only aiming at customers for whom price is no object?
  4. Personally, I don't see inability to swap batteries as being any problem. It is a simplistic solution (conceptually, but almost impossible to implement) to a temporary problem. With Tesla claiming their batteries are already capable of over half a million miles of use and soon to be 1 million, why the obsession with swapping. Tesla are nothing special in this regard and battery degradation will be much reduced or possibly eliminated with new battery tech. There's no fundamental law of this Universe that means batteries have to degrade. It's just inefficiencies of the technology that causes this and there's no reason to suppose that it cannot be virtually eliminated in the future. CATL are already claiming their new tech (soon to be in production) has the potential to offer I think at least 600 km range and only about 10 mins to recharge to 80%. Not today, for sure, but we are only a few years away from such advances, so realistically, battery swapping is something of a dead end.
  5. I know the Series 2 was first announced in Oct 2000 and sold from 2001, but can anyone tell me exactly when (i.e. Month) the first S2s were registered?
  6. I'm not aware of anyone actually having announced the use of structural cells yet. That will possibly change, but currently it's always cells in a pack, whether the latter is structural or not. Even Tesla's latest 4860 cell (that is so new it's not even being used in production yet) is just another individual cell that requires something to hold them together in a pack - which may or may not be structural. Regarding Lotus and CATL, is it not possible that CATL would manufacture structural cells to suit their customer's requirements? So CATL manufacture the structural cells/pack to whatever Geely specify. Rather than simply churning out cells and leave it up to their customer (i.e. the car manufacturer) to fit them all together, why not operate like most third party suppliers to auto manufacturers and make the parts specifically to suit that customer (and only that customer as others will have different requirements/designs). I don't really see a situation where Lotus have to design their car to suit some inappropriate generic structural pack design from CATL. Ultimately it's probably pointless to speculate and as technology progresses, things could change anyway.
  7. I'm not sure what you're getting at there regarding structural battery pack. Whether they use the CATL batteries, pouch cells or some 4860 variant, or whatever, the batteries themselves CANNOT be the actual structural component. They are small items, but lots of them so whatever their topology, they have to be in some 'exoskeleton' that is the structure to which Lotus have been referring. The actual cell inside the 'pack' is kinda irrelevant is it not?
  8. Another thought on this 'secrecy' thing. The most obvious and common reason for secrecy about a new model is to avoid any loss of sales of the current model. However in the case of Lotus' very first SUV, first production EV and in fact their entire new EV line, that's completely irrelevant as there are NO current models of which to lose any sales. Still seems to me that by releasing more information about their forthcoming models they have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
  9. I've opined here before that I believe new model secrecy is counter-productive, but it was brought to mind again recently with some (not relevant) news from Tesla as they exemplify how I think it should be done. I know Musk isn't always completely accurate in what he reveals of their future intentions, but by the time the CyberTruck is launched, we will have had about 3 years to consider it, see it, understand what it is and have an idea of the price. Anyone in the market for such a vehicle will have had full opportunity to consider the options and make their choice - possibly not purchasing anything else as they just want the CyberTruck. Compare that to Lotus and their new range. No pictures of anything prior to the launch, except for vague spy shots and now months after the Eletre launch, still no idea whatsoever of price. Will it be a nice surprise at 60k, or an unrealistic 120k. That's a big variation. As for the 133, 134 and 135, who knows. They might be moon buggies for all we know. I think it's just something marketing types think is clever, to keep potential customers guessing, yet I think in reality it just pisses them off. Well, it does me. All this secrecy is childish IMO. Without any real information about the upcoming cars, I am far more likely to simply move on and buy something else. A CyberTruck maybe. 😀
  10. eUKenGB

    Type 135

    Yes I was and you are correct that larger batteries reduces the percentage of packaging content. With so much new battery technology on the horizon (solid state etc) it is both an exciting and a frustrating time.
  11. eUKenGB

    Type 135

    Not really. The diameter of circles packed together does not affect the 'density'. Hard to explain, but smaller circles (i.e. cells) means more cells in a given space, but also more spaces/gaps between them, so the relative proportion/percentage of cell to gaps is constant, whatever the diameter of those circles/cells. Which means for a given height, i.e. length of cell, their diameter makes no difference to how much 'battery stuff' is contained in an assembly of many cells. That's not to say there aren't advantages to using larger diameter cells, but density is not one of them. Square cells could be more closely packed with resultant higher density, but cooling requirements mean the gaps between those round cells are actually beneficial. As usual, it's all about compromise.
  12. You never heard of manufacturers with waiting lists. 😀
  13. I think it was the Top Gear review that claimed Lotus stated to them the Eletre was "bang on 2 tons". It's no Elise, but that is very good for an SUV of that size, let alone an EV. If that figure is correct, I'd say they've done a good job, however they achieved it. Much as I think it's a great car, it is unfortunately larger than I really want and price will be critical. Over £100K just wouldn't be worth considering. 134 might be more suitable for me, but another 2 years off and no idea whatsoever what it will be like. As I said before, I think Lotus is doing themselves a disservice by withholding information. I would wait 2 years for a car that was worth it, but when I have no idea, I'm more likely to go off and buy something else. So I become a lost opportunity to gain a customer. Hook me in now with proper info about what is in the pipeline or lose me forever.
  14. Benchmarked by who? As I said, at the I-Pace launch I attended at Goodwood, it was most definitely not being positioned as a rival to the Macan. Whatever the press may have done since, that is not what I was informed how Jaguar saw it and the base price of the I-Pace is higher than that of the Cayenne, so not sure why you insist on comparing the I-Pace to the cheaper Macan, against which Jaguar have the E-Pace and the (I-Pace sized) F-Pace as an ICE competitor to the Cayenne. Anyway, as I also said, it's impossible to state any 2 cars are equivalent as there will always be differences, in actuality and perception. What is clear is that 'segments' aside, the 132 is bigger than the 134. At least that has now been settled. I just hope they don't then make the 134 less powerful, as is often the case with different sized models from the same manufacturer. I never get the logic of that.
  15. That's why I think trying to define the 132 and 134 as E and D class is misleading since those classifications don't actually correspond to size. In terms of how 'luxurious' they are, the Jaguar I-Pace is up there with the current X5 (significantly better than my X5 E53 for example), even if a little smaller externally, but it's not an X3 class car for sure. It's always hard to categorise cars since there can be infinitely fine differences between them and any one vehicle can easily straddle the middle ground between 2 'segments'. What is it then? Ah, define a new segment. Which just creates more 2 gaps. Besides which, a car may appear to match 2 segments (e.g. the 'J' class and perhaps 'E'). What is it then. To fully and absolutely categorise all cars within such 'segments' is an impossibility.
  16. So let's revisit what is meant by 'D' and 'E' segment vehicles, as I think many are confused.
  17. Conversely I've never met ANY woman who had any interest in such things (more's the pity). I guess we move in different circles.
  18. Found some interesting additional info in Top Gear review. "Lotus’s claim the Eletre weighs around two tonnes dead" That puts the weight at 2,032kg which is light for the class and puts it under the Cayenne AND even the Macan. Those are the ICE versions and I'll hazard a guess that their EV versions will be heavier. So +1 to Lotus on that. TG also point out that the 600hp 'basic' version has 2 motors and can achieve the 0-60 in 2.9 secs figure that is claimed and is impressive. Then there'll be a tri motor version (2 on the back axle, as per Tesla Plaid) which at 300hp each makes it 900hp, which fits in with what we've heard. However that would be even quicker of course, although I doubt it would break the 2 sec. barrier. My guess is the basic one will be available first and the "Ultra SUV" version will arrive slightly later. There's nothing factual I have seen or heard about the Eletre that I don't like. My one niggling concern is price and I cannot help but wonder when that will be revealed.
  19. "They" meaning? I don't see any mention of it on Lotus' website. Maybe I missed it, but in any case, yes I have seen it mentioned elsewhere. But my point is that no actual specs for that seem to have been yet released. Actual towing capacity is critical. I know what I want to tow and my X5 does that. A Model X can also easily handle it (also the CyberTruck of course), but the Jaguar I-Pace cannot and the Kia EV6 is marginal. Towing has a bigger impact on an EV, so it's more than simply "it has a tow-bar". The question remains, what can it do with that tow-bar? Not criticising Lotus here, just saying I would like to know that level of info about the Eletre and I'm looking forward to it being released - or me finding it on the website. 😀
  20. I agree that those are considerations, for the more technically and critically minded. But I can pretty much guarantee that most potential EV users interest in the concept of battery swapping is all about range and re-charge times. Degradation will also become less of an issue with newer technology. There are already designs for battery types that basically do not degrade (check out QuantumScape), so swapping becomes an irrelevance. Clearly not there yet and so for the immediate future swapping is a viable solution, but as I said, it's a stop-gap until the better battery tech becomes available.
  21. I think battery swapping is a stop-gap solution. Once range is high enough and charge time is low enough (all on the horizon), the desire to swap batteries will diminish or even go away. I have not seen any information about the Eletre's battery tech. All I've seen is that it uses an 800v system and a claim that it is the first electric SUV to do so, which is untrue and should piss of Kia/Hyundai who already sell SUVs using exactly that technology, while the Eletre is a whole year off. Unless they claim the Eletre is the first ever 'Hyper SUV', in which case they can claim everything is a first, but it's all just semantic BS. I'm looking forward to more technical info about the Eletre. Like battery and motor technology etc. Pleased to see it has (or can have) a tow bar as that is of particular interest to me, but no info on its towing capacity etc. Hopefully we won't have to wait a full year before they let us know this sort of stuff about the car.
  22. Well at the launch, Jaguar told me it was Macan sized on the outside, but Cayenne sized on the inside. They currently have the F-Pace (essentially the same size as I-Pace) to compete against the Cayenne and smaller E-Pace against the Macan. Which rather puts the I-Pace against the forthcoming electric Cayenne. At the end of the day, unless they're exactly the same size, it's impossible to state absolutely that any 2 cars are equivalent. What I can tell you is that I am an SUV owner, interested in a new electric SUV and the I-Pace and Eletra are absolutely in direct competition for my attention - at the same money. Yes the 100k could be different currency, but the review I was watching showed it as £s. I'm not saying they are correct, I'm just pointing out why I think £100k would make it over-priced. However if I'm correctly interpreting the hints on here from those 'in the know', it seems like Lotus have not made a huge faux pas. I hope they don't and time will tell. I don't dispute they want to target Bentley and/or Lamborghini. That would be something to aim at, but you cannot achieve parity immediately just by offering a similarly expensive car. People will for sure pay more for those brands (and probably Porsche) than a Lotus. Currently that's just the way it is. Can Lotus raise their status to those levels? Possibly, but not with their first product on that path. They'll have to build up to it. Those brands have had plenty of practice building up to and maintaining their current level of status. BTW, there was no hidden agenda in the cars I picked to compare. It was just a few in which I am interested and/or had easy access to the data. I tried to pick the basic spec (hence pricing column headed 'From'), but sometimes hard to get equivalent specs and as I explained, the Eletra specs are probably mixed up between different models. Or will the 600hp version do 0-60 in 2.9 secs? In which case, how will the 1000hp version perform and why not quote that 0-60 time? That has not been made clear. So my list was quick and dirty, for my own benefit to get a handle on how some cars roughly compared and then I thought others may be interested. If not, no worries, I did it for my own benefit. 😀
  23. With respect, if Lotus think they will be competing against Bentley and Lamborghini, they've got their heads well and truly up where the sun don't shine. I also don't see the I-Pace as competing with the Macan but although the Eletre is a bit larger, I think it is close enough to the I-Pace to be a competitor. The Taycan is not an SUV I realise, but the Cross Tourismo is certainly in that direction and if the Eletre is at £100k, I know what most buyers would go for. Porsche have built a reputation and demand for their cars. Lotus have not managed to do that yet (in a good way) and they won't do it by trying to charge more than Porsche. The Cayenne and Macan I included in the table are of course the current ICE models, just by way of comparison as no data on the EV versions, but in any case why would the EV prices be different? Only if the manufacturers are trying to pull a fast one. Which means the new Cayenne EV will likely be 10% or so more, but that is still a lot less than £100k. Of course the actual price of the Eletre is still just speculation.
  24. I've done a bit of a comparison (attached below), to put the 132 into perspective. I think its closest rival at the moment is the Jaguar I-Pace which I happen to like enormously as it is a great car. Fast and exhilarating to drive as well as very good looking both inside and out. Much as I like and admire Lotus, I think Jaguar has a higher perceived 'value', having always been a manufacturer of luxury cars. Not so much Lotus. All those EVs are stunning performers and whether 0-60 is achieved in 4 or 3 seconds is irrelevant to actual road use. No-one and I mean NO-ONE takes off from traffic lights to get to 60 in such ludicrously short times (and keeps their license). So let's just say, they're all quick enough. Correct actual power and torque figures can be hard to obtain, especially e.g. Tesla and I've seen many different figures quoted. In many respects the 0-60 times is probably the simplest comparison, although beware Tesla (again) who cheat and their times are often from a rolling start. IOW, not really 0-60 at all. The Eletre data is also not clear at this stage. If it will be available from 600 - 1000hp, which variant can claim 2.9 secs to 60? I cannot see them quoting anything but the shortest time and so that's likely to be the high power version. So the low power (600 hp) one will in that case take longer. Anyway, the figures must be viewed with a critical eye. My main concern however is the pricing. I cannot see a base price of the Eletre at £100k as being realistic when compared to those other SUVs. Makes it look a very expensive car and much as I like it, I'm not sure it's that good. There is also the fact it is Chinese built and based on a Chinese designed platform. In truth, I don't care a toss about that and firmly believe the Chinese can put together a better built car than the Brits, who have repeatedly shot themselves in both feet with shoddy manufacturing and hence there is no longer ANY actual British car manufacturer. However, I am not necessarily the typical customer for the Eletre and many prospective purchasers of a £100k car will avoid anything with such Chinese connections. So I think at that price it will be a very hard sell. Ignoring the Chinese connection, it still looks very expensive next to the competition. Would you buy that instead of e.g. the cheaper Taycan Cross Tourismo? I'm not convinced it is worth any more than the even lower priced I-Pace. I realise that Lotus themselves have not yet confirmed (to me) pricing, but one media review of the Eletre stated it was starting at £100k. They may be wrong and I sincerely hope so, but even at £80k, how does it then stack up to the competition? Still not a slam dunk - certainly not with Toyota and Lexus now in full swing with some very interesting EVs in the offing at very much lower projected prices. Seems to me that entering the EV game is being seen by many manufacturers as a way to hoist pricing in the hope that customers won't notice. However, while I'm sure Porsche can get away with it, Lotus does not have the same reputation and trying to outprice Porsche doesn't seem a smart move to me. Or maybe I just want a cheap car. 😀
  25. I agree about the driving position as that also means a bigger more visible car. I've recently been driving a particularly small sports car and in the last couple of weeks have twice nearly been run off the road by other cars. The first was the worst case of outright bullying I have ever experienced. 2 lanes merging and having let the car beside me to go in front, the car behind him (large SUV) decided to try and follow (by overtaking me) and barge me out of the way. Needless to say I did not oblige, but his big front wheel got very close to my drivers window. The other was someone belatedly realising they needed to take the exit off the M25 and being so engrossed with his mobile phone simply did not look hard enough to see me. Bot those could have resulted in significant 'contact' had I not reacted fast enough. This sort of behaviour enrages, but doesn't frighten me. Other less 'assertive' drivers would be very intimidated and so having a higher driving position, in a larger taller vehicle is then considered safer and more secure. Whilst I don't NEED that, I can understand the desire. As for "perceived status", it's an oft quoted criticism of SUVs in general and I think it's BS. For the above reasons and also for the interior space they provide, SUVs are hugely practical and if you have no desire to tear-arse around the roads at max velocity, then they are a very sensible choice. Someone poncing around in a flashy 911 (insert any other fancy sports car) is far more concerned with status than the average mother ferrying her kids around and who in all likelihood has no interest in cars or any 'status', whether perceived or not.
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