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Future of the Evora in the USA

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19 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Yes I know that. I’m just trying to explain why such a seemingly random car is on that list. Someone presumably applied back then for the Carbon F1 GTE #9, since sold to adfer. Maybe the other factory GTEs would also be eligible on that basis?

Don’t forget the GTE itself was publicly launched at Monterey (Pebble Beach Concours) back then and now the Evija is getting similar treatment at The Quail. It would seem daft not to sell it in America.

As to the Evija, dealers here are taking deposits.  As to our laws, as is states GTE F1 LE, the importation allowance would be for that one car.  If you read the list, some other vehicles are truly for only the one specific car listed as they even state the prior owner.. the term 'significant' does not seem to be taken lightly.

Even Bill Gates had his 959 impounded for 13 years before getting this law passed to be able to drive it,

Edited by Julian73

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In addition to Jalopnik, CNET and Automobilemag posted reviews yesterday as well:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2020-lotus-evora-gt-preview/

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2020-lotus-evora-gt-first-drive-review/

Matt Farrah also posted a short YouTube video on his channel about it, which is the first official video footage of the GT:

 

All the coverage so far seems to be saying the same thing: great car made even better with this latest version, the auto sucks, and this is one of the last truly analog drivers cars you can buy new in 2019. Everyone loves it. As they should.

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I can confirm that. Driving slowly in auto or manual the change can seem a bit sluggish. Get on the power a bit and it rifles home changing gear much faster than I could manually.

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All the reviews say the auto upshifts early even in sport mode, and the gear changes are rough, sluggish, and slow to respond to shift inputs in manual mode - sounds like a really bad time. 

Personally, the manual transmission is about 95% of the reason I ordered one of these cars. The Evora is about pure analog driving, and I can think of at least 5 other sports cars I'd have considered and probably purchased already if I considered an automatic.
1. TT RS 

2. F-Type R

3. 718 GTS

4. 4C Spider

5. Z4 M40i

- The first 3 are all quicker than the Evora for similar or less money, and the last 2 are significantly cheaper than the Evora and not much slower. Why on earth would anyone want an automatic Evora? I would keep my manual Nismo Z over an automatic Evora. I realize I'm a bigger die hard manual fan than almost anyone, but an automatic Evora to me just sounds like sacrilege. The Automobilemag article said that roughly 70% of Evora buyers choose the manual, but I'm actually surprised that number isn't higher. 

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 Manual owner here, but would not blink to buy a auto if a came along at the right price, i know friends and fellow enthusiasts who have had both options and they all say it’s hard to separate them, both great cars, sure there are auto owners on this forum that totally agree.

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I had an auto Evora 400 and I switched to an Elise 220 Cup which is about as raw, manual and analog as you can get (as far as cars with proper doors go). 

I thoroughly enjoy the manual shift in the Elise but also thoroughly enjoy the auto box in the 400, but I also think the auto in touring mode is pretty useless, the trick is to never drive it in touring. :D

Launching from a set of lights with a paddle shift is something else. 

I’ve also driven a number of manual and auto Evora 400’s back to back, as @scotty435 says, hard to separate them when you’re giving it loads. 

Anyway, derailing slightly. I think it’s great to see Lotus offering both for the US market with the Evora GT.

Edited by Nathan Pitman
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21 hours ago, name_bran said:

All the reviews say the auto upshifts early even in sport mode, and the gear changes are rough, sluggish, and slow to respond to shift inputs in manual mode - sounds like a really bad time. 

Personally, the manual transmission is about 95% of the reason I ordered one of these cars. The Evora is about pure analog driving, and I can think of at least 5 other sports cars I'd have considered and probably purchased already if I considered an automatic.
1. TT RS 

2. F-Type R

3. 718 GTS

4. 4C Spider

5. Z4 M40i

- The first 3 are all quicker than the Evora for similar or less money, and the last 2 are significantly cheaper than the Evora and not much slower. Why on earth would anyone want an automatic Evora? I would keep my manual Nismo Z over an automatic Evora. I realize I'm a bigger die hard manual fan than almost anyone, but an automatic Evora to me just sounds like sacrilege. The Automobilemag article said that roughly 70% of Evora buyers choose the manual, but I'm actually surprised that number isn't higher. 

I bought an auto Evora last year, my first auto Lotus of many I’ve owned over the last 50 years. Whilst I agree it isn’t a particularly smooth change when pottering around town, my other two cars both Mercedes are streets ahead on that score, it is very impressive when pushing on. Under those circumstances, especially in Sport mode, it responds to the paddles immediately with a much quicker change than I could manage with a manual ‘box - very satisfying  

I did try a manual 410 before ordering mine and the current cars have a vastly improved gearchange  over earlier Evoras but, for me, the auto was better suited to my needs. I certainly don’t regret the decision for one instant and doubt I’ll ever go back to a manual Lotus after this. 

Of the 5 cars you’ve cited, I’ve driven all bar the BMW and really none that I’ve driven, with the possible exception of the Cayman, can compare with the dynamic ability and driver involvement of the Evora, auto or not. The Evora is a rare gem in a sea of mediocrity amongst sports cars and a secret not many others outside of Lotus circles know about. I’m actually quite glad about that in a selfish kinda way! 😁

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I drove a 718S and selected a 400 MT.  I assume I'd have felt the same about a GTS.  

 

 I'm keeping my 400 which isn't the same as saying I wouldn't prefer a GT but I can't talk myself into the difference. It's two thirds of the mythical 60K Corvette plus my 400 to swap for a GT.    Given the options the 'Vette provides us in the new world, I'm better served by keeping my 400 and perhaps getting a new Chevrolet rather than trading the 400 and getting a GT.  The difference I'd have to pay to beat my spec (plus a tune and a down pipe)  would be the better part of $40K, maybe even a little more.

As respects "the future of the Evora" I have to assume there isn't one after the GT.   But I do hope and suspect any Evora will be a sought commodity in ten years.  The GTs and the few 410s we got will be the headliners but there will be so few of those that any 400, of which there are also very few,  will still be a rarity and while they drive rich they are reasonable to keep.  We know  these cars will be relatively easy to keep alive  as long as they are willing to provide us the panels and parts that routine use always requires.  They will probably be cheaper to maintain than any Porsche, just as they are now.  Unfortunately, that will not be the case compared to a Corvette which will have been designed to be serviced at a Chevy store and runs on The Small Block.  How many more mid engined IC platforms are we going to see going forward?  I don't know but  until further notice, I'm thinking the sports car world stopped for a second when the Vette was finally loosed and things won't be quite the same until it all shakes out.  

I'm glad I have my 400, wish it was a GT but with the money I saved I may just buy me one new Chev-roh-lay.  Or the next Lotus platform that shares and improves upon the Evora's mission. But I don't see life without a Lotus and to actually replace the 400 a car will have to bring a shed load of joy.  

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'17 Evora 400 MT 

 

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The mid-engine vette is auto only. It means nothing to me. And like all Corvettes you’ll be seeing them all over your local Chevy dealerships and at every other intersection in town within a few years time. The price and performance are there, but the presence and the stick shift are not. 

I guess having an Evora with an auto still means you get one of the best handling cars out there. And you still have that rarity factor and the good looks. But there’s nothing like shifting yourself with an honest to God to clutch. Plus I guarantee in ten years when cars like these are becoming a distant memory, the manual will command a large premium. Similar to how manual versions of Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and almost every other sports car made commands a premium right now. And that difference is only going to increase. Not that I care at all about resale value as I plan to keep my GT for a very long time-perhaps forever if the market keeps trending where it’s headed. But still, there’s a reason those manuals are rocketing up in value: autos are boring, and nothing is as timeless as a good old fashioned stick shift in a sports car. The Evora isn’t about setting fast laps and lightning quick shifts as much as it’s about having a blast and being engaged in the drive while setting them. That’s why I’d never get an auto. But I realize I’m a bigger manual fanboy than pretty much anyone. I’d rather drive a Civic Si over an automatic Evora-crazy I know. 

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^I agree with your analysis regarding future values and  the manual is also  my preference in a sports car like the Evora.  However I very much doubt it will affect Vette sales in any meaningful way although I get that's a n individual choice and more importantly, your choice with which I have no argument and which I'd likely opt for myself.  

Unfortunately, even in the C7 the manuals had less than a 10% take rate and with a good dual clutch  that rate would probably have been even lower.  So I understand why they optead to dump the manual.  For folks like us that may well be good news for future values but that's the same problem if we bought virtually any other exotic currently on the market absent Porsche and Lotus. I understand the manuals have been  at risk (and perhaps continue to be)  even for Porsche as their take rate is no higher than Chevrolet's has been.  Lotus is wise to stick with a manual given their positioning albeit we must note that it is the limiting factor regarding how much power the drive train can handle  in an Evora.   Will we be shocked when Lotus makes the same decision or will they be willing to design their own manual when the OEM sources dry up and when the cars go electric or hybrid?  We drive anachronisms.   

At my level of skill there is no doubt I would be faster around any closed course (or drag strip) with a proper DC.   I haven't  owned an auto shifter in any vehicle I've acquired for strictly personal use ever.  I would still consider the C8. What I'd be much less likely to do is buy a first model year GM car.  Many reasons why but in this particular car it's a matter of simple economics for the manufacturer. That's the same across the board.  If you want a new 500HP plus mid/rear engined car and it's not going to be a GT3, you're hosed. 


'17 Evora 400 MT 

 

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On 06/08/2019 at 18:03, name_bran said:

All the reviews say the auto upshifts early even in sport mode, and the gear changes are rough, sluggish, and slow to respond to shift inputs in manual mode - sounds like a really bad time. 

I have owned an S IPS and currently own a 400 Auto. The 400 shifts much faster than the S, I mean way faster. It actually surprised me. I originally tested a stick, when I was test driving the 400s. In fact I believe it was Loquacious Lew's Green 400 from AutoEurope before he bought it. Stick was great. I never drove an S1 stick, but I did own an Elise and it was way nicer than that. After driving stick I thought for sure I was going to get a stick even though the main reason I got an S IPS was because it would be driven in traffic. Then I tested the 400 auto. Holy crap, it shifted way quicker than my S ever did. It was like night and day.

So in regards to your quote, most of it just isn't true in my experience.

In auto + sport it seems to shift at red line (assuming you are on it). If you are half throttling or something of course it won't go to red line.

Gear changes are quick, surprisingly quick for a torque converter. Again, assuming you are on it.

Manual + sport shifts are quick, but again, if you are more leisurely driving it does shift a little slower than compared to if you are driving more aggressive.

The one thing the 400 auto does have is shift shock (in sport, smooth in normal). The shifts can sometimes be jarring and are not close to as smooth as a good dual clutch. Sometimes is is fun because it gives you a real kick in the ass, but at the same time it can sometimes be annoying.

I think a lot of people underestimate the 400 auto. I think they think its basically the S1, its not. Whatever they did to the TCU made a huge difference.

That being said I agree with others. The manual variants will most likely hold their value better than the auto. When I bought my 400 I thought I would be driving it more in traffic situations like my S. However, I began working from home,very soon after purchasing. Knowing what I know now about my professional life I would have gotten the stick, but in all honesty the auto shifts quicker than I can. So (at least in my hands) the auto is the faster car.

Honestly the whole gatekeeping on these forums in regards to auto vs. manual I feel is pretty lame. Who cares what someone prefers? I can drive stick, however I got an auto because I thought it would be the best for my situation at the time. I would never hate on someone's choice to buy an auto over a stick. Especially in a GT car like the Evora.

Edited by Likuid
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I have a manual, but did my test drive in an auto as this was the only demonstrator available.

I have to say that I was very impressed with the auto gearbox and thought the speed of gear change was very quick.

I haven't driven the previous generation Evora in auto, but I knew on the 400 it was much quicker that the original and a big improvement by all accounts.

My reason for going for a manual was partly down to cost, but most importantly because I felt that particularly when driving into work, I'd just leave it in auto and wouldn't be bothered to change with the paddles.

That said, I did a bit of research on torque converters in general and there certainly seems to be a shift (pardon the pun) towards this type of gearbox and with the improvements in shift times and the weight saving against a double clutch set up, a number of manufacturers have decided to go in that direction and with continued development, I suspect these may become the auto gearbox of choice.

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6 hours ago, Likuid said:

The 400 shifts much faster than the S, I mean way faster.

If I remember correctly the gearchange went from 1.4 seconds in the S1 to 0.4 seconds in the 400. 


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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I believe that the average manual shift time is between 500ms and 1sec so unless you're some kind of shift ninja that's faster than most humans.

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4 hours ago, Simon Bateman said:

That said, I did a bit of research on torque converters in general and there certainly seems to be a shift (pardon the pun) towards this type of gearbox and with the improvements in shift times and the weight saving against a double clutch set up, a number of manufacturers have decided to go in that direction and with continued development, I suspect these may become the auto gearbox of choice

You're right, there was a distinct shift away from torque converters when DCT came out - but the complexity and expense of these them gearboxes is quite high.  They basically gave the gearbox manufactures a bit of a kick up the back side, and as a result some real effort was made to further improve them and now the advantages of the DCT over Torque have been drastically cut - such that the cost difference doesn't justify it anymore.

I'm pretty certain Audi have been shifting back to the Torque converted on their S models of late.

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I won’t be surprised if and when Lotus goes to auto-only for their cars at some point. Just like I won’t be surprised when they drop the 2GR V6 for Volvo sourced 4 cylinders-making this generation of Lotuses the last to be powered by 6 cylinders. In fact, I ordered a GT for those very reasons. This last run Evora could very well be the end of an era at Lotus and sports cars in general since it’s already essentially the last of its kind, especially in this price range. Although, I do think they’ll hold out longer than most with the manual just because their manual take rate right now is so high.

But the argument of manuals not being able to hold as much power as autos or DCTs is a complete farce. No one wants to take the time and r&d to develop a new manual that CAN hold more power. All the money is being put into autos and that’s why they’re able to handle more power these days. That’s just where automakers’ priorities are right now. And I don’t buy into all that manual take rate percentage bs either. Corvette manuals were up near or over 50% when the C7 was launched. The people who wanted their manuals probably ordered them exactly how they wanted them the first couple years they were on sale and just never upgraded since it’s not like the C7 got any major refresh during its entire production run-a 2014 C7 looks exactly like a 2019 for the most part. So why upgrade? Meanwhile rental companies still bought new autos all the time and the vette itself upgraded its auto from a 6 speed to an 8 speed a couple years after it was launched-arguably the biggest mechanical change to the car during the entire production run. That change probably made a few auto buyers upgrade. But they made no such improvement to the engine or the manual transmission so manual buyers probably just kept theirs. My guess would be those manual buyers would have easily upgraded to a manual C8 if they had the choice. 

Admittedly the C7 at least offered the stick in all of its trim levels because some companies really have a hay day with their manual take rate numbers. Jag claimed that it’s manual take rate was like 3% or something so that’s why they killed it in the F-Type. Man... hearing a Jag spokesperson quote that pissed me off more than anything car related in recent memory. I can’t tell you how many times I tried to bargain with myself about how I accept buying a mid tier F-Type just to get the manual. A car that would be slower yet double the cost of my already overpriced Nismo Z. With no monobloc brakes and lazily bolstered seats. If they would have just given the R coupe a manual I probably wouldn’t be on this forum today-I’d own a manual V8 F-Type. So when automakers talk about their “take rates” being low- it’s not hard to see why once you stop and think. And I can’t wait for Genesis to announce they’re killing the manual in their G70 because of “low take rates” -gee you think? Offering a manual paired only with the base engine didn’t get any attention from enthusiasts??? Wow WHO would have thought??

I’m sick of the auto industry as of late. This Evora GT is a hero car in my mind as it’s the last car of its kind. I’ll probably never sell mine. There will probably never be anything else like it manual or otherwise. 

Edited by name_bran
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4 minutes ago, name_bran said:

I won’t be surprised if and when Lotus goes to auto-only for their cars at some point.

Won't happen. Completely not what the brand is about. 


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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I don't think they're planning to offer the Evija with a manual. :D

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The Evija is definitely a change in direction for the brand. And it’s a path that I see Lotus embracing for their future cars. Hybridization and full electrification could potentially end manual transmissions for the brand completely eventually. If they hold on to their engine deal with Toyota then I might change my opinion on this. But with Geely now owning Lotus and Volvo being the only other automaker they own that makes their own engines that are homologated world wide, I can’t see Geely not taking advantage of that and sticking with Toyota. Volvo only makes 4 cylinders. And their highest T8 trim levels all involve electrification. Moreover, the Polestar brand is all electric. Lotus will probably be forced in this direction too is my guess. The Evija is the start of a whole new generation and brand ethos of Lotus. And although the Evija is a “cool” car, it’s not for me-even if I had the money to buy one. 

I really hope I’m wrong about this. But I wouldn’t be surprised either way. 

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I read today that Lotus will be an electric only brand within 10 years. So sad. 🤮🤢😓

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!        

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And I read we were getting an Evora Roadster and a full-on GT430. You just never know until it happens right? 😂

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