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Petrolgeneration's Metallic Grey 2019 Lotus Elise Cup 250 - Project Thread

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why dont you try nankang ar-1 tyres?

i spoke to jubu and komotech aswell and they told me 300+hp on 2ZR it's unachievable and not cost-effective, if you manage to bring it with a supercharger setup to 350 please keep me posted because i would really be interested in the setup.

Consider that afaik 2ZR should be a long stroked 1ZZ (1.6) i doubt the hp figures u mentioned are achievable without putting an engine swap on the table.

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9 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

why dont you try nankang ar-1 tyres?

i spoke to jubu and komotech aswell and they told me 300+hp on 2ZR it's unachievable and not cost-effective, if you manage to bring it with a supercharger setup to 350 please keep me posted because i would really be interested in the setup.

Consider that afaik 2ZR should be a long stroked 1ZZ (1.6) i doubt the hp figures u mentioned are achievable without putting an engine swap on the table.

It is not going to be cheap but it is doable. There already is a guy in Germany, Michael Koop, running a single garret turbo and putting out 470hp on the dyno.
You are going to need a reinforced short block though.

I'm currently talking to Jubu and they said it was achievable. Who are you talking to?

A bigger charger is possible but then it would need a custom manifold to fit, which can be developed over winter Mike told me. I am positive though 300hp is doable without spending ridiculous amounts of money and without doing a turbo conversion. I'm not sure yet which route I am going but would prefer to stick to supercharger for homologation and power curve reasons.

Also, small sneek peak.

Work in progress! Still need to do all the wiring for the wireless raptor receiver but atleast I can turn the wheel already haha

2019-09-10 18.31.09.jpg

Edited by Petrolgeneration

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And another box arrived!

I looked into these mirrors a while ago. These are the same than GFWilliam's mirrors and it looks amazing on the car. He designed custom stalks for mounting these so I'm hoping to get them soon.

Mirrors are by far the ugliest part on the Elise/Exige range so I'm very happy with these!

Link for those interested: https://www.gregsraceparts.com/products/billet-aluminum-mirror-kits-for-elise-exige?variant=12383430770735

2019-09-12-11-44-00.jpg
2019-09-12-11-44-39.jpg
2019-09-12-11-44-44.jpg

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On 11/09/2019 at 14:03, Petrolgeneration said:

It is not going to be cheap but it is doable. There already is a guy in Germany, Michael Koop, running a single garret turbo and putting out 470hp on the dyno.
You are going to need a reinforced short block though.

I'm currently talking to Jubu and they said it was achievable. Who are you talking to?

A bigger charger is possible but then it would need a custom manifold to fit, which can be developed over winter Mike told me. I am positive though 300hp is doable without spending ridiculous amounts of money and without doing a turbo conversion. I'm not sure yet which route I am going but would prefer to stick to supercharger for homologation and power curve reasons.

Also, small sneek peak.

Work in progress! Still need to do all the wiring for the wireless raptor receiver but atleast I can turn the wheel already haha

2019-09-10 18.31.09.jpg

Spoke to martin, 300hp on 2ZR = 20k€ which makes you really consider a k20 swap, also there isn't really a kit and there isn't really anything tested, so it is also uncertain if block can sustain that as well as valves\springs, can tell you that italian pb-r cup cars if they exceed redline even just a tiny bit (in downshifts f.e.) you are looking at an engine rebuild, so at this point i doubt block can hold track abuse with more than 275hp

Btw how is the RRR standalone ecu going? They claim you should be able to reach 300 with full exhaust, that ecu and a remap

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Komo Tec’s Facebook page refers to a 285 kit for the 2ZR which is currently in development.

in the comments they say it’s a 265 kit with customisable ECU.

So assume its the RRR ECU with 2bular / other exhaust, appropriate intake and TUV approval.

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On 18/09/2019 at 12:32, MilkNCookies said:

Spoke to martin, 300hp on 2ZR = 20k€ which makes you really consider a k20 swap, also there isn't really a kit and there isn't really anything tested, so it is also uncertain if block can sustain that as well as valves\springs, can tell you that italian pb-r cup cars if they exceed redline even just a tiny bit (in downshifts f.e.) you are looking at an engine rebuild, so at this point i doubt block can hold track abuse with more than 275hp

Btw how is the RRR standalone ecu going? They claim you should be able to reach 300 with full exhaust, that ecu and a remap

To about 300hp it should be around 9.2k. Discussed this extensively with Martin.

This includes a free programmable ECU (not EMU Black), adapter loom, O2 broad band, header, sportscat and heat insulation.

On 20/09/2019 at 22:59, Five50 said:

Komo Tec’s Facebook page refers to a 285 kit for the 2ZR which is currently in development.

in the comments they say it’s a 265 kit with customisable ECU.

So assume its the RRR ECU with 2bular / other exhaust, appropriate intake and TUV approval.

I'm just hearing lots of mixed things on the RRR Ecu so I'm not a huge fan of fitting that.

I've also got a quote for a single turbo conversion which would set you back about 22k and delivery about 350hp. Any higher would require gearbox modifications.

This includes all the upgrades above but also with a reinforced engine, steel rods, custom pistons, new bearing and gaskets, drill and hone and complete build cost.

 

I'm actually in doubt at the moment. I have an opportunity to purchase a brand new Cup 430 for a very low price. I might consider getting the Cup 430 although I have several pro's and cons for doing so.

Elise Cup 250 

Pro
+ Lower weight
+ Lower running cost (due to weight and small engine tax wise)
+ Low tax and registration fee
+ Better weight distribution
+ More feedback from the wheel

Con
Expensive to get up to a power point where I would feel like it is 'done'
- Might lose the road legal side with all the engine modifications (actually engine modifications are forbidden in Belgium)
- Might lose reliability, specially on the gearbox side
- Still have several upgrades to do that are stock on the 430 (suspension, power upgrades, alcantara trim & carbon sills)
- NO LIMITED SLIP DIFF (what were they thinking)

Exige Cup 430

Pro
+ Power to weight ratio to a point where I feel it is perfect for what I'm expecting
+ Already fitted with lot's of the things I would want to do on the Elise (Alcantara dash and carbon sills)
+ Rear looks better
+ The engine: sound alone makes me want to drive it
+ Ability to buy it at a ridiculous price (30-35K under MSRP)

Con
- The handling of the Elise really started to grow on me. I've driven lot's of high-end sportscars but never enjoyed a cars handling more than my Cup 250
- Weight balance is a bit off, can feel jiggly when driving hard on track
- Very high running cost in Belgium (registration is about 7k, yearly tax around 3k and insurance about 4-5k without track insurance)
- Higher maintenance cost with extra brake and tire wear
- Already spent 6.8k on full PPF on the Elise Cup, everything else can be removed and transfered
- Would take a decent loss when selling the 250 although it is justified and neutralized by the price of the cup 430 (would still be better off)
- NO LIMITED SLIP DIFF (what were they thinking)

It's not really a money issue. I can comfortably afford either car but it's harder for me to justify that I pay a ridiculous amount of tax for a car that spends lot's of time in the garage.
If it was a daily driver, I wouldn't make a big deal out of the tax costs as it would make me happy driving it every day but my rational thinking mind makes it harder for me to justify in this case.
When I initially went to the Lotus dealer I was planning on buying a 430 but walked out after I bought a 250 instead. Only thing I don't like on the 250 is the lack of oemph on corner exit. Other than that, I absolutely LOVE the car. 

Would love to hear your guys thoughts on this!

 

 

Edited by Petrolgeneration

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In truth only you can decide.

the 250 is always going to offer a different experience to the 430 and vice Versa so you just need to make a call on which journey you want to go on.

i think that the torque and additional charisma of the v6 engine does make it a compelling road car - so you could always daily drive the 430 

but in the end - this isn’t your last opportunity to own either car 

what are you hearing about the RRR solution? Any feedback from the gold 260 Cup owner?

 

And no engine mods??!! Brexit doesn’t sound so bad... 😳

 

Edited by Five50

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3 minutes ago, Five50 said:

In truth only you can decide.

the 250 is always going to offer a different experience to the 430 and vice Versa so you just need to make a call on which journey you want to go on.

i think that the torque and additional charisma of the v6 engine does make it a compelling road car - so you could always daily drive the 430 

but in the end - this isn’t your last opportunity to own either car 

what are you hearing about the RRR solution? Any feedback from the gold 260 Cup owner?

 

And no engine mods??!! Brexit doesn’t sound so bad... 😳

 

If you know who the owner is, I would love to chat to him a bit and ask his opinion.

I have no idea what to expect from the 250 with 300hp for example. It might feel 'fast enough' for what I expect. I just really miss not being pushed into my seat when hitting an apex and going full throttle on corner exit. I know I'm really spoiled with a 600hp AMG daily that keeps going even at speeds over 250km/h but would love a bit more for the Cup 250. Other than that, it is a pretty perfect car. Power and soundtrack. Only 2 downsides for me at the moment.

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Well why not 311 at this point?

What i keep hearing is that cup 430 lacks traction especially coming out the corners respect cars with similar HP figures and track attitude, it's undoubtly faster than the 250 but it's really different it's heavier and you can feel it and imo it loses a lot what lotus is about.

If i were in your shoes i would go ahead with the 250 build, maybe later on add a dogbox and you are serious fast, want to be a missile? turbo it, or k20 turbo it with a sequential and you are basically driving a dallara.

also 350hp on 850kg (411cv\ton) push you in the seat the very same 430hp on 1100kg do (390cv\ton)

And trust me if you go for the 430 you are going to tune that aswell.

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15 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

Well why not 311 at this point?

What i keep hearing is that cup 430 lacks traction especially coming out the corners respect cars with similar HP figures and track attitude, it's undoubtly faster than the 250 but it's really different it's heavier and you can feel it and imo it loses a lot what lotus is about.

If i were in your shoes i would go ahead with the 250 build, maybe later on add a dogbox and you are serious fast, want to be a missile? turbo it, or k20 turbo it with a sequential and you are basically driving a dallara.

also 350hp on 850kg (411cv\ton) push you in the seat the very same 430hp on 1100kg do (390cv\ton)

And trust me if you go for the 430 you are going to tune that aswell.

Leaving a car stock is never really an option. Haven't owned a single car that I haven't fiddled with. That's what makes us petrolheads I guess.

I also looked into a 311 but that is just too much sacrifices. I have had quite a few enjoyable weekends with the Cup where I just pop the roof out and go for a drive with my better half. Something that is impossible to do with a 311.

I do agree that upgrading the 250 could make it a ballistic missile. Spending 27k for big brake and turbo is a lot though. I feel at that pricepoint, it shouldn't be unrealistic to have a K20 engine fitted with turbo and boost-by-gear mode in an ECU that can run over 400 hp. I would intially go for 350 hp anyway as I think that will already be PLENTY fast on track and will be way better for the lifespan of the transmission before a rebuild is necessairy. Anything higher and the transmission would blow to pieces. Haven't had the car for long but already have 10k km's on the dashboard and 2 days at the track. I also track it hard, really hard. I do plenty of long stints and try to squeeze everything out of the car so keeping a reliable package really is important to me. 

Haven't seen a single K20 fitted in an S3 / MY 17.5 though. I've googled but not even sure who could help me with that. It would solve part of the sound and experience issues. Rev limit at 9k and huge power output would be amazing. Soundtrack of a K20 is also really 'racecar' like in my opinion. Just haven't found anyone who swapped a 17.5 MY yet.

Edited by Petrolgeneration

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16 minutes ago, Petrolgeneration said:

Leaving a car stock is never really an option. Haven't owned a single car that I haven't fiddled with. That's what makes us petrolheads I guess.

I also looked into a 311 but that is just too much sacrifices. I have had quite a few enjoyable weekends with the Cup where I just pop the roof out and go for a drive with my better half. Something that is impossible to do with a 311.

I do agree that upgrading the 250 could make it a ballistic missile. Spending 27k for big brake and turbo is a lot though. I feel at that pricepoint, it shouldn't be unrealistic to have a K20 engine fitted with turbo and boost-by-gear mode in an ECU that can run over 400 hp. I would intially go for 350 hp anyway as I think that will already be PLENTY fast on track and will be way better for the lifespan of the transmission before a rebuild is necessairy. Anything higher and the transmission would blow to pieces. Haven't had the car for long but already have 10k km's on the dashboard and 2 days at the track. I also track it hard, really hard. I do plenty of long stints and try to squeeze everything out of the car so keeping a reliable package really is important to me. 

Haven't seen a single K20 fitted in an S3 / MY 17.5 though. I've googled but not even sure who could help me with that. It would solve part of the sound and experience issues. Rev limit at 9k and huge power output would be amazing. Soundtrack of a K20 is also really 'racecar' like in my opinion. Just haven't found anyone who swapped a 17.5 MY yet.

With 350hp on 850kg you are faster than the 430, and to make it even faster you just need to adjust coilovers, gear ratios, try different rubber.

Consider that the 430 has also way higher costs in manteinance if you track it,

K20 turbo tends to overheat a bit on the track but it's manageable, it's a blast on the street, you dogbox a k20 turbo lotus and you are sitting on a rocket, i can tell you that there is an italian guy that did it for sure and it's the same stuff as for S2 kit except engine mounts are good 3 out of 4, if i am not mistaken there are around those new innovative or something engine mounts and then you are good to go with a swap, but still imo with 350 you are good so if jubu\komotech can take the 2ZR over 300hp mark with around 9k€ i believe that's the way to go, i am waiting for that kit myself and as soon is tested and comes out i'll send my cup there.

I could've chosen myself other cars over the 250, imo if you want something more than what you can get from the 250 you should really look at other brands (and ppl will kill me here) like 718 GT4 or wait for the GT4RS, tuned 430s keep up with GT porsches on track but they really struggle

Edited by MilkNCookies

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40 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

With 350hp on 850kg you are faster than the 430, and to make it even faster you just need to adjust coilovers, gear ratios, try different rubber.

Consider that the 430 has also way higher costs in manteinance if you track it,

K20 turbo tends to overheat a bit on the track but it's manageable, it's a blast on the street, you dogbox a k20 turbo lotus and you are sitting on a rocket, i can tell you that there is an italian guy that did it for sure and it's the same stuff as for S2 kit except engine mounts are good 3 out of 4, if i am not mistaken there are around those new innovative or something engine mounts and then you are good to go with a swap, but still imo with 350 you are good so if jubu\komotech can take the 2ZR over 300hp mark with around 9k€ i believe that's the way to go, i am waiting for that kit myself and as soon is tested and comes out i'll send my cup there.

I could've chosen myself other cars over the 250, imo if you want something more than what you can get from the 250 you should really look at other brands (and ppl will kill me here) like 718 GT4 or wait for the GT4RS, tuned 430s keep up with GT porsches on track but they really struggle

I've driven the old Cayman GT4 on track aswell as the 991.2 GT3 RS and I can only say that immersion wise, it's very different. Don't get me wrong, because I'm a big Porsche guy. I just feel kind of disconnected driving it, if that makes any sense to you. Also the whole concept of the GT3 RS is something I don't get. If I wanted heated seats and a full nav with decent radio, I would choose a GT3. An RS should be a road legal racecar. Not something with a bigger option list than a regular road car. The new GT4 Cayman with the NA 4.0 looks amazing though and what an engine that is, but it just doesn't make me tingle the way a Lotus does. I've had friends who like cars but aren't 'real carnuts' like myself and they go: why would you buy a car like this if it doesn't even have a decent aircon and radio for this amount of money? They indeed suggested GT4 like you said because it is also track focused with more comfort. Then I'm just thinking, you guys really don't get it. I want a racecar immersion that I can drive on the weekends. I don't care about compromises. No distractions with all the buttons and flashing lights, just pure driving and that is something only Lotus can offer me at the moment in a package I like.

Overheating on track, that worries me. You got any information on that? I feel like that must be something that can be resolved with extra radiators, bigger intakes? 

Also, thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it!

Edited by Petrolgeneration

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1 minute ago, Petrolgeneration said:

I've driven the old Cayman GT4 on track aswell as the 991.2 GT3 RS and I can only say that immersion wise, it's very different. Don't get me wrong, because I'm a big Porsche guy. I just feel kind of disconnected driving it, if that makes any sense to you. Also the whole concept of the GT3 RS is something I don't get. If I wanted heated seats and a full nav with decent radio, I would chose a GT3. An RS should be a road legal racecar. Not something with a bigger option list than a regular road car. The new GT4 Cayman with the NA 4.0 looks amazing though and what an engine that is, but it just doesn't make me tingle the way a Lotus does. I've had friends who like cars but aren't 'real carnuts' like myself and they go: why would you buy a car like this if it doesn't even have a decent aircon and radio for this amount of money? They indeed suggested GT4 like you said because it is also track focused with more comfort. Then I'm just thinking, you guys really don't get it. I want a racecar immersion that I can drive on the weekends. I don't care about compromises. No distractions with all the buttons and flashing lights, just pure driving and that is something only Lotus can offer me at the moment in a package I like.

Overheating on track, that worries me. You got any information on that? I feel like that must be something that can be resolved with extra radiators, bigger intakes? 

Also, thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it!

Then man you gotta go for the 250 build, 430 cup is very similar to GT4 in performance but it won't have any comfort

k20 turbo swapped lotus overheating not sure if can be fully resolved but surely can be managed, just don't expect to be able to do 30minute turns without cooldown laps, there are turbo k20 lotus around that do hillclimb and stuff but those are cars completely turned upside-down

supercharged k20s can easily reach 350hp ;)

side note k20 turbo swaps are in the 30k€ range, imo the best compromise is to take the 2ZR to 300 or so hp with a dogbox

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11 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

Then man you gotta go for the 250 build, 430 cup is very similar to GT4 in performance but it won't have any comfort

k20 turbo swapped lotus overheating not sure if can be fully resolved but surely can be managed, just don't expect to be able to do 30minute turns without cooldown laps, there are turbo k20 lotus around that do hillclimb and stuff but those are cars completely turned upside-down

supercharged k20s can easily reach 350hp ;)

side note k20 turbo swaps are in the 30k€ range, imo the best compromise is to take the 2ZR to 300 or so hp with a dogbox

Dogbox would make it totally undriveable on the street though and it would give a lot of transmission whine. Don't think that is an option I woudl enjoy very much as long as I keep driving it on the regular road.

It probably requires regular rebuilds after 100h of running etc ?

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A sequential dogbox if you drive it clutchless that's for sure, but if you are not driving it hard all the time doesn't need to be rebuilt every something hours, just do regular mainteinance on it.

As for the street undriveability idk, it's not so bad depends a lot on which type of clutch you combine it with... check youtube there are several videos of dogboxed lotuses driven on the street, it's really not that horrible

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7 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

A sequential dogbox if you drive it clutchless that's for sure, but if you are not driving it hard all the time doesn't need to be rebuilt every something hours, just do regular mainteinance on it.

As for the street undriveability idk, it's not so bad depends a lot on which type of clutch you combine it with... check youtube there are several videos of dogboxed lotuses driven on the street, it's really not that horrible

If I really go the sequential route, I would prefer doing it right. But a full sequential install is a 20k setback and has lot's of drawbacks. That I couldn't get through MOT, even with handshakes and the need for rebuilts and such...

I also really like the 6-gated manual. One of the reasons I love the Lotus so much. I don't want the quickest shifts, I just want the push of the horsies when I release the clutch and push the throttle. I just have a lot more fun driving the manual on track than I think I would with a sequential.

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1 minute ago, Petrolgeneration said:

If I really go the sequential route, I would prefer doing it right. But a full sequential install is a 20k setback and has lot's of drawbacks. That I couldn't get through MOT, even with handshakes and the need for rebuilts and such...

I also really like the 6-gated manual. One of the reasons I love the Lotus so much. I don't want the quickest shifts, I just want the push of the horsies when I release the clutch and push the throttle. I just have a lot more fun driving the manual on track than I think I would with a sequential.

Sure but it's slower, and with that power figures it's more likely to break.
elise cup cars quaife install you are looking at around 7k installed, 20k it's the exige dogbox: another kettle of fish

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/lotus-toyota-6-speed-sequential-gearkit-ec60 that's what you are looking for

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2 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

Sure but it's slower, and with that power figures it's more likely to break.
elise cup cars quaife install you are looking at around 7k installed, 20k it's the exige dogbox: another kettle of fish

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/lotus-toyota-6-speed-sequential-gearkit-ec60 that's what you are looking for

I indeed looked into sequential for the Exige when I was still planning on buying that before I got the Cup 250. Very interesting! 

It will not fit probably with a K20 as I suppose it will require a different gearbox ? But very interesting!

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18 hours ago, Petrolgeneration said:

I indeed looked into sequential for the Exige when I was still planning on buying that before I got the Cup 250. Very interesting! 

It will not fit probably with a K20 as I suppose it will require a different gearbox ? But very interesting!

Yes k20 has a different box, it should be this one https://shop.quaife.co.uk/quaife-honda-civic-5-speed-sequential-gearkit but i am not sure, priced around 8-9k

Also another thing if you go supercharger route with a k20 you probably won't have to do internals if you keep max power at around 350hp

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1 hour ago, MilkNCookies said:

Yes k20 has a different box, it should be this one https://shop.quaife.co.uk/quaife-honda-civic-5-speed-sequential-gearkit but i am not sure, priced around 8-9k

Also another thing if you go supercharger route with a k20 you probably won't have to do internals if you keep max power at around 350hp

I really believe that, given the right mods, the Toyota engine should be able to deliver 350hp with a supercharger. That would be the perfect amount although I would also be very happy with somewhere around 325.

I just don't want to give it up yet as a useable road car for now. If I really couldn't care less I would just buy a 410 sport for the road and mod the heck out of the 250 but I'm afraid then my girlfriend would kill me. Already have 4 cars at home and there's just the two of us so I don't think I would be able to get away with that 😉

Also talked to an Italian tuner yesterday who said it would be doable to do the 350hp on the Toyota engine. He said, for that power number, you don't need a full engine swap. I'll wait what he says although I would prefer to drop my car at Jubu or even Komo due to their experience and reputation.

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14 minutes ago, Petrolgeneration said:

I really believe that, given the right mods, the Toyota engine should be able to deliver 350hp with a supercharger. That would be the perfect amount although I would also be very happy with somewhere around 325.

I just don't want to give it up yet as a useable road car for now. If I really couldn't care less I would just buy a 410 sport for the road and mod the heck out of the 250 but I'm afraid then my girlfriend would kill me. Already have 4 cars at home and there's just the two of us so I don't think I would be able to get away with that 😉

Also talked to an Italian tuner yesterday who said it would be doable to do the 350hp on the Toyota engine. He said, for that power number, you don't need a full engine swap. I'll wait what he says although I would prefer to drop my car at Jubu or even Komo due to their experience and reputation.

May i ask who is that italian tuner? 
And yea same to komo or jubu even if i am italian myself...

 

Well 350 on the 2ZR needs testing for sure, especially how long the EC60 gearbox can hold, personally i would be happy aswell with around real 300 to the wheels 

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4 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

May i ask who is that italian tuner? 
And yea same to komo or jubu even if i am italian myself...

 

Well 350 on the 2ZR needs testing for sure, especially how long the EC60 gearbox can hold, personally i would be happy aswell with around real 300 to the wheels 

Talked to Garage Calde'SAS. They've done some pretty nutty stuff with Elise cars including swaps and sequentials.

https://www.facebook.com/Garage-Calde-SAS-426866594073225/

 

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Just now, Petrolgeneration said:

Talked to Garage Calde'SAS. They've done some pretty nutty stuff with Elise cars including swaps and sequentials.

https://www.facebook.com/Garage-Calde-SAS-426866594073225/

 

Oh yes man they are the good ones, they even have their shop next to where i live, they have solid years experience in k20 swaps, this is one of their latest creatures 

 

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2 minutes ago, MilkNCookies said:

Oh yes man they are the good ones, they even have their shop next to where i live, they have solid years experience in k20 swaps, this is one of their latest creatures 

 

That's the reason I ended up talking to them. Looks like a wicked build.

I'm just really exploring options here but I would like to decide rather quick so I can have the car built and completed during winter so it's ready for the next track season.

Just plan on doing one more trackday on the 27th of october and then it is either Exige or Elise upgrade time :)

Edited by Petrolgeneration

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Love the spec, especially gray and orange combo, although I'm partial since my SLC is Grigio Telesto with orange interior accents.  Looking forward to updates on this car

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