Removing The Distributor!

[PaulW]

Hi

I've had the autoelectrician around today and he has confirmed that the distributor is "dead" ... I now need to remove it and take into the shop for reconditioning. I'd be very grateful for your advice as I'm mechanically (and electrically) incompetent I've probably commenced this job the wrong way around, removing the plenum etc to expose the side of the distributor .. the autoelectrician says all I need to do now is undo the clamp at the rear of the device and pull it forward, noting the position of the rotor first ... frankly I'm a bit frightened by the task ... and there isn't much room to manipulate the part!!! I hope someone can explain the best (idiot proof) way forward here.

Very grateful from Adelaide.

Paul

[Splashout]

Your electrician is right.

There is a simple clamp that you undo at the base of the distributor it will then just pop out.

The rotor arm can point in one of two directions as it is simply a slot on the end of the shaft that fits into a grove, so just note if it points up or down etc, a little digram or phot if you are really paranoid will show you when you come to put it back.

As you have gone as far as you have it should be easy to get to now.

[molemot]

The clamp is held on to the oil pump housing by a nut on a stud. If you undo this, you can remove the distributor and replace it without having to wriggle it out of and back into its clamp. There is an internal spring which will aid in removing the distributor...this must be remebered when retiming the engine, as loosening the clamp can cause the whole thing to pop out and stop rotating, which kills all the sparks. What's supposed to be "dead" with the distributor? All that's in there is the Lumenition switching unit..I suppose that might have died, but they don't usually..the normal culprit is the little reddish connector between the distributor and the ignition box. Worth a look. As a Lotus owner, I feel your days of being technically incompetent ar probably numbered!

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

There is an alternative...

http://www.sciperformance.co.uk/page_322070.html

An e-mail to them yielded this response:

"We believe the 123ignition GB-4 would certainly fit, but it would be nice to

see the spec ie advance curve of your existing dizzy. If it would work the

cost would be

[Esprit Aviation]

-Or- stick a crank triggered system in and do away w/ the dist. altogether. I'm using an Electromotive HPV-1.

Fishy, glad to hear of you progress on the clutch!!

Cheers, Lee

[cantwelp]

Heading off to wage battle with a sick 1983 non-starting S3 Turbo now myself. I'm not mechanically minded on engines (yet) as the most complex stuff I have ever done mechanically before the Lotus arrived was using a corksccrew.

New Dist cap put on - king lead & all plugs getting a spark but the Fkr wont fire up - trying to work out If I made a hames of putting the leads back on or if I messed up the firing order on the dist cap.

I know the 1-3-4-2 lark and I have a book that says the arm revolves clockwise - but which position on the dist is no 1?

Anyway, very depressed with the weather and the state of the car at the moment - will post some pics later to show why - car was the dogs when I had it on the road last week - then it died.

Pop Pop Pop at 50mph 300 revs taking it handy - suddenly a loss of power - felt like a cylinder gone or dirty fuel jamming the carbs as the revs were intermittent then the engine cut out - I left it in gear and momentum started it again - briefly put the foot down and as I introduced power the car spluttered and died - all electrics were fine - lights. radio, windows etc.

Any suggestions please let me know - so far I think it could be the coil or compression or fuel - just about anything really !!!

PC

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

IIRC

You need the crank at Top Dead Centre (TDC) and the 'lead' the rotor would be pointing at is number 1

You will then need a strobe gun in order to set the timing (by rotating the dizzy cap slightly)

There should be an inspection hole in the bellhousing that lets you see the flywheel - there is a 'pointer' in this hole and markings on the flywheel that show TDC and then 10 degrees, 20 degrees before and after...

I think the timing is either 8 or 10 degrees btdc (before top dead centre)

[cantwelp]

Cheers for the info - found TDC and managed to get the Dist cap back on - clipped and leads in right order.

It took a bit of a boost but I got her started only to find it cut out after 3 seconds.

A bit more choke, some throttle and it fired again then cut off after 2 seconds.

Same again & same again...now I reckon that the problem may be fuel related:

- not enough pressure

- dirt in the carbs

- dirt in the petrol

Tell me more about the timing ... as I said earlier I'm not an expert - just a reluctant fiddler in the engine bay.

Any suggestions what I need to do next?

PC

Any ideas -

[Splashout]

Timing is pretty much as the evil one says, however the direction of rotation is clockwise from the drive end. which actually equates to anticlockwise rotation when you look at the distributor end.

So find TDC which ever position its pointing at should be NO1 this should be top left position as look at the distributor if its been set up correctly.

Then just follow it round in the firing order so 3, then 4 and finally 2.

If that is correct then start to look at fuel, start by removing the fuel line to one of the carbs put it in a pot and turn on the ignition fuel should pump out at quite a pace. If thats ok check the fuel line to the other carb.

If both are delivering fuel then you know the carbs are getting fuel.

If one or both is suspect then move to the other side of the pressure regulator and repeat to see if fuel is making it that far and again if it is not work further back until you get to the pump.

If nothing is found here and you suspect fuel is getting to the carbs ok. I would then look at your spark.

Check the gaps on the plugs and that all plugs spark with a healthy spark.

If it is still not running let us know and we will think some more

Edited June 20, 2007 by Splashout

[PaulW]

Thank you very much for your help guys ...

Glyn, John, you were spot-on with your responses: the distributor came out without any problem and I took it to my helpful autoelectrician. Previous testing in-situ showed "no pulse" from the distributor when the engine was cranked. In the workshop, the distributor actually proved to be OK. Lead / connector problem? (as you suggested). I came away with instructions on how to test further ... connected up the distributor to the 'black box' and, rotating the innards got a spark from a plug connected to the lead from the coil (I hoped I've made sense here :-) This was good, but I was hoping to find a faulty bit! Perhaps the process of re-connecting everything was enough? Telephone call to the a/electrician who advised to put it all back together. So that's where I'm at at. More to follow.

And yes, John, I am less incompetent than I was two days ago and I've quite enjoyed the journey!

Thanks again.

Paul

[molemot]

It's quite possible that undoing the connector and plugging it back in again would have been enough to clean the contacts sufficiently to make it work again. The contacts are difficult to clean, but gentle application of fine wetordri paper and a suitable needle file should do the trick...or get your auto electrician to fit new connectors to both sides, the metal contacts crimp on to the wires and then push into the plastic holders. Also worth a look are the leads from the optical switch gubbins inside the distributor, as they can wear through the insulation and short out to earth. I actually changed a perfectly good Lucas optical switch when the problem was a combination of duff wiring and the rotten connector.Most electrical problems come down to poor connections or poor earthing. Remember Ohm's law; we've only got 12 volts, so you don't need much resistance before you can't flow much current. The great thing with intermittent problems is that you always get a second chance to solve them! None of this stuff is rocket science, and as long as you've got a brain and sufficient hands and eyes you can sort stuff out..the learning process can be frustrating, but it's very satisfying to fix it yourself. Years back, I was visiting a buddy in Vancouver BC..he had a TR6 and one of the universal joints on the left hand half shaft broke up.He was an insurance salesman with no mechanical knowledge at all; I found a workshop where we could rent a bay by the hour and we proceeded to change the U/J in a morning and get down the pub by lunchtime. After that, he bought some tools and finally did a chassis up rebuild on another TR6...so this stuff can be addictive!

[PaulW]

Reinstalling the distributor ...

The saga continues: during the process of reassembly, when connecting the two cables (distributor to ignition amplifier) I managed to break one of the two wires leading from the distributor - the break was where the wires had been soldered: presumably the original plug had been replaced at some point. (Perhaps this was a weak point which caused the problem in the first place?) Anyway, distributor out and down to the shop for repair ... in addition the a/electrician was going to secure one of the dist cap clips which had lost its securing spring (making it very difficult to replace in the dist housing if the underside clip pops out in-situ!!) Attached is a pic of the replaced repaired cable with a longer length of wire, and the now-secured clip:

I have ALMOST succesfully replaced the dist in its housing, lined up the rotor in its original position ... pushing the assembly in smoothly until the rotor is locked into position (ie, can't be rotated) BUT I can't push the end sleeve of the assembly in far enough to ensure it is fully covered by the clamp: I'll attach a pic which hopefully enables Forumites to understand this problem ... "X' shows the end of the sleeve which I assume has to be fully inserted into the housing ... and yes, the clip is sufficently open to potentially allow the entry of the end of the dist. The other I observation is that the distributor housing can still rotate freely whilst the rotor is fixed in position ... is this the norm? Does a fair bit of force have to be applied to overcome the resistance of the internal spring mentioned above? I'd very much appreciate your help again please.

Not wanting to break anything Paul

Edited June 22, 2007 by PaulW

[Splashout]

If you have pushed it in as far as it will go then there is a chance that that is as far as it goes try doing up the clamp and see if you can remove it or not. If not that that should be fine.

The distributor will turn when not locked up as this is used to fine tune the timing if necessary.

[molemot]

Getting it back into the clamp is one of the reasons I always undo the nut holding the clamp to the housing..I've just been down to the workshop and my distibutor fits in so that the flange is flush with the clamp, so it's likely that it should fit in further and your "x" gap shouldn't be there. To be sure, I'd be inclined to take the distributor out again, remove the clamp from the engine (a minute with a suitable spanner) and fit the distributor in place without the clamp, noting what gap you have between the flange and the housing. Then pull it out again, and fit the clamp to the distributor, flush to the flange, and put the whole thing back again. You'll be getting pretty good at it by now! Then, assuming it all fits in nicely, check your approximate timing and rotor arm alignment and do it all up. The spring isn't particularly strong, but is there and will push the distributor out if the clamp is too loose..it's a compromise between being able to adjust the timing without it popping out, and not being able to turn it at all. As a rough guide to timing, if you set the crankshaft to the timing position then, with the ignition on you can turn the distributor and you will hear a faint crack! as the ignition triggers. That'll do to start up with, then best to use a timing light to set it up at the right rpm. It also works quite nicely by simply having the engine running and turning the distributor small amounts in each direction until the engine sounds happiest. Sounds daft, but it works, and if you then measure it with a timing light you'll find it's pretty close!!

[dazmans3]

Hi Paul

Just been reading through this, Having just taken my oil pump appart, I have to agree yours does look a bit proud. Have attached a photo taken from my old LC engine which does show the dizzy with a much lesser gap.

Have you tried refitting it to ensure its keyed in properly, or mayby you could gently rock the dizzy arm to get it to lock in. I noted the seal is very thight on mine, have you put a bit of lube on the shaft to help eaise it in.

Hope this helps, will let you know how I get on when I re assemble mine tomorrow, provided I can get the rotor of the shaft in the oil pump.

Edited June 22, 2007 by dazmans3

[PaulW]

SUCCESS!

Thank you John, Glyn and Daz for your extremely helpful responses ... the distributor sleeve was in the housing sufficiently to allow the clamp to secure it ... reassembled everything ... turned the engine over ... nothing :-(

Phone call to my (non-Lotus) friend who suggested that I may not have realigned the distributor to its original state ... got out my high magnification pre-disassembly digital pics I'd taken for just such an occasion ... rotated the distributor (say, 1 - 1.25cm) to the original position highlighted in the pics ... turned the key and it started first time!! Whoopee!!! And I now know that I should have placed a mark on the dizzy prior to removal ... thank goodness for digital cameras.

Thank you again my friends.

Paul (even more technically OK since t'other day and yes, feeling good)

[robertcosta]

SUCCESS!

Thank you John, Glyn and Daz for your extremely helpful responses ... the distributor sleeve was in the housing sufficiently to allow the clamp to secure it ... reassembled everything ... turned the engine over ... nothing :-(

Phone call to my (non-Lotus) friend who suggested that I may not have realigned the distributor to its original state ... got out my high magnification pre-disassembly digital pics I'd taken for just such an occasion ... rotated the distributor (say, 1 - 1.25cm) to the original position highlighted in the pics ... turned the key and it started first time!! Whoopee!!! And I now know that I should have placed a mark on the dizzy prior to removal ... thank goodness for digital cameras.

Thank you again my friends.

Paul (even more technically OK since t'other day and yes, feeling good)

SUCCESS!-NOT EXACTLY

How's this for weirdness....I now own the car! and it made its journey from Adelaide to Sydney.

It took 11 days of being shuffled from one truck to another and judging by the amount of accumulated dirt not once was it ever inside!

Of course its a Lotus and hence didn't start!

Knowing what Paul just went through I immediately checked the spark and there is none.

For the moment I'm going to assume the dizzy is fine and the previous repairs are OK.

I wondered if there are any tests I can perform on the ignition system that doesn't require the dismantling of half the engine to get to the distributor! Any quick way to test the coil or the electronic box?

Ahhh the wonderful world of Esprit ownership....

Robert

PS. Paul did email me photos of the car moving onto the transport truck...I couldn't spot the hidden tow rope!

[PRS777]

Hello, having the same problems, i assume i can find TDC to get number 1 on the cap, but:

Which cylinder is No 1?

Or to put it another way, where does the longest or shortest lead go?

Being smart i marked the original cap with 1-4 before taking everything apart, then sat down to wait a month long wait for a new dizzy cap to arrive.

As i was on a business trip i took the marked up cap with me, just in case i could find one somewhere, being stupid i managed to leave it in a hotel in Singapore.

[molemot]

Check the leads to the distributor from the ignition pack, three wires going through a connector which often gets dirty and electrically non-conductive. A wiggle of this connector can make it burst into life!! Pretty much anything else is going to mean spannering....

Cylinder numbering...No 1 is towards the front of the car; to get no.1 on the firing stroke, turn the engine manually until the timing dots on the cam pulleys align and the TDC mark on the crankshaft is also aligned. Then you'll be at TDC, firing stroke, No.1 cylinder. The rotor arm is then pointing at No.1 cylinder position on the cap.

Good luck...me, I've had these engines in and out and rebuilt them in my garden, under a tarpaulin, in a rotting tent, an old shed..and now, with a fully equipped workshop, I've lost one of the driveshaft socket headed bolts!!! Typical.

[PRS777]

Check the leads to the distributor from the ignition pack, three wires going through a connector which often gets dirty and electrically non-conductive. A wiggle of this connector can make it burst into life!! Pretty much anything else is going to mean spannering....

Cylinder numbering...No 1 is towards the front of the car; to get no.1 on the firing stroke, turn the engine manually until the timing dots on the cam pulleys align and the TDC mark on the crankshaft is also aligned. Then you'll be at TDC, firing stroke, No.1 cylinder. The rotor arm is then pointing at No.1 cylinder position on the cap.

Good luck...me, I've had these engines in and out and rebuilt them in my garden, under a tarpaulin, in a rotting tent, an old shed..and now, with a fully equipped workshop, I've lost one of the driveshaft socket headed bolts!!! Typical.

Thank you! If i had not asked i would have have got it wrong!

[dglotusltd]

Considering what you just did...check the dizzy. FRight after I remounted mine it popped out. Guess I did not tighten the plat enough and its slipped out just enough that the cam does not engage and the rotor does not spin. Looks ok outwardly and the symptom is no spark at the the plug wires......Da!

It only has to pop about 1/2 inch or less.

the other usual supects are cap and rotor and such......

I know how it feels. Took me 3 weeks to chase down a missfire to a bad plug that was actually cracked and leaking so much compression that No 1 would not fire even with a good signal on the wire.

DomG

[robertcosta]

Thanks Dom,

I've gone further than the previous owner and removed pretty much everything in the way of the dizzy. So now its bare and naked in front of me....ran out of time on the weekend.

Now I'm going to go through the whole thing wire by wire!

That said, do you think I should just replace the ignition system with something more modern?

Robert

[dglotusltd]

All In can offer is to work through each item. What kind of ignition system does it have? From the first post it sounds like a Lumination.

The obvious stuff to look for include the coil and the wires. For a no spark condition on all cyclinder leads, I'd change out the coil. Cost me $36 (US) for a new 3ohm Epoxy coil. Then check for spark. If you get none I'd be real suspicious of the Lumination control unit. Sorry but I don't know of any tests.

As far as the system itself, I converted to the Pertonix ($79 US) while hunting down my problem. Its a simple 2 wire setup. The only unusual thing is that the + lead needs 12volts so you cannot simply tap the coil (since the resister ignition wire drops the voltage at the coil below 12V). Since my Lumination was already supplied with a +12V ignition switched lead, I simply used that to supply the Pertronix. The Neg (-) lead goes to the coil and your done. Just be sure to order the correct kit for your dizzy. I have a Euro spec car with a 43D4 dizzy which required the LU143 Pertronix.

Mark the Dizzy body position and the rotor position, then pop it out....makes the install painless...except for the part of getting the Dizzy back into the engine. the markings will help align it back and the rotor position will ensure the keyed end mate properly as it seats. Then all you nee is 3 arms and a spanner to cinch it down without it poping back out.

Have the timeing light ready. My timing at idle needs to be between 10 and 12 degrees so a slight tweek might be in order as the senor has a slightly different pickup position from the Lumination.

Let us know what you have done and we'll try to offer timely suggestions.

DomG

[Splashout]

There are a set of tests you can run through to find to point out why you are not getting a spark they are in the manual. I will find them and post

They are basically all performed with a decent multimeter and you work through them, checking volts and ohms etc to see if something is odd.

igntests.pdf

[robertcosta]

There are a set of tests you can run through to find to point out why you are not getting a spark they are in the manual. I will find them and post

They are basically all performed with a decent multimeter and you work through them, checking volts and ohms etc to see if something is odd.

Looks like the amplifier is toasted...

I assume the amplifier is an AB14 fed from the hall effect distributor.??

There must be a zillion british cars that use the same..Jag XJ6?

Robert