Serious trouble V8

[booboo93]

Hi there,

 

Please take heed, of what is being said, these chaps are only trying to help, or you could loose 10k on the first turn of the key!! Trust me what Mike does not know about these motors is not worth thinking about.

Mike helped me out 2 years ago, and when I had finished building mine, I then put it in the back of the van and drove it to Leicester, so a factory chap could check my timing, as I didn't what hours and hours of work and shed loads of cash going pop!!

All the best

 

Andy

 

[MD355]

Update : Guys I visited my mechanic and expressed all the concerns here.. He showed me the marks he had put on the shafts of the camshafts and the crankshaft from a previous time he had timed the engine perfectly with dial gauges...

[mike_sekinger]

Get the guy the Service Notes...  echo...

[MD355]

I gave him from day 1 the 1899 page PDF of the Workshop Manual for the Esprit V8.

Today I asked him if he looked at it and he was positive in his response...

[mike_sekinger]

Then there is no point in providing any further input. He has decided to make his own way despite being informed.

[MD355]

This thread is to share with you the progress and I openly accept all feedback from everyone knowledgeable !! Especially you Mike, who uni-vocally everyone agrees that you know best on the Esprit V8 !! All your feedback is welcome and I appreciate your help !!

At the end of the day it is my mechanic's responsibility to build it right !! I have provided him with all the info and shared with him all of your feedback during this build !!

Let's see how it turns out...

 

[march]

1 hour ago, MD355 said:

At the end of the day it is my mechanic's responsibility to build it right !!

Sorry but I have been biting my tongue on this thread for a little while now.

Please remember people can know a lot of stuff - until they don't - at that point it generally becomes very expensive for someone else (my neighbour can vouch for that). If their is a tried, tested and documented method that has been validated by others would it not make sense to follow it? A good question to ask your mechanic is 'Does he have specific experience and knowledge of rebuilding these specific engines?'

[MD355]

You are absolutely right !! I am a "go by the book" guy in everything I do !!

But it is true that sometimes a very good mechanic can come up with simpler / alternative solutions... If they work and the results are successful, then why argue...

Your feedback is very useful to me, so please feel free to express yourself...

When in doubt, I find some comfort showing you guys what is going on, and immediately I tell my mechanic all of your concerns as if they were mine...

[C8RKH]

This is starting to sound like every parents nightmare...

"Johnny, stop playing by the cooker, there are several pans of boiling water".

"It's ok Daddy, I not near"

"Johnny, stop playing by the.....oh fook, Liz, Liz, dial 911 Johnny's got 90 degree burns everywhere..."

I laud your enthusiasm and wish you well but as an observer I don't believe your mechanic is listening/interested in advice and your blind faith in him is worrying. I really do wish you well with this rebuild...

[MD355]

Hahaha your example is very funny !!!

He is a good mechanic. I don't think he would risk messing it up if he did not know what he was doing...

He saved me with my other car many times !!

I first went to him after I had problems with my Ferrari 360 Modena... I had gone to the dealership for a belt service, and they must have messed up because the car was not sounding right and was not pulling hard... I tried 2 other mechanics and when I went to him, he fixed the timing !!

The funny thing again with the F360 is that based on the Workshop Manual, the procedure requires to remove cylinder head covers, place dial gauges on the valves and degree wheel on the crankshaft (luckily the 360 Modena has a hole in the passenger compartment to check the belts)... Next you need to measure 0.60mm opening for intake valves at TDC and for exhaust you reset dial gauge at 9 degree BTDC and measure 1.66mm as your rotate and the exhaust valves close... This is WSM description...

Guess what, my mechanic had his own way of doing it, which he never revealed but the engine works amazingly !! After a lot of pressure to tell me, my guess is that he uses the crankshaft position sensor for the exhaust camshafts 657/657 (it is shown on OBD)and for intake he said something like he build special tool from a good working 360 and he applies it...

Please no rock throwing (for lack of better expression) !!!

[Chillidoggy]

Something here has been bugging me, and that’s the liner/head installation. In the Lotus Service Notes for the V8, it clearly states that the cylinder heads should be fitted within 4 hours of the liners being installed. 

[C8RKH]

@MD355 I'm not throwing rocks, at least intentionally anyway. I love V8 Esprits and I really do wish you the best outcome. I'm just a little worried for you. That's all...

[Sparky]

[Barrykearley]

6 hours ago, MD355 said:

I gave him from day 1 the 1899 page PDF of the Workshop Manual for the Esprit V8.

Today I asked him if he looked at it and he was positive in his response...

Shame he only looked - maybe he should have read it in detail, twice, and then acted on the information contained within it - to the letter

[Giniw]

1 hour ago, Chillidoggy said:

Something here has been bugging me, and that’s the liner/head installation. In the Lotus Service Notes for the V8, it clearly states that the cylinder heads should be fitted within 4 hours of the liners being installed. 

Probably to allow the sealant to cure with the liners in their final position? Here the liners were maintained by the washers so it's more or less the same? — I am not discussing the fact it would be better/more secure to use the head directly (which totally makes sense to me but I have no experience in removing and installing a cylinder head)

Edited October 24, 2019 by Giniw

[march]

1 hour ago, Giniw said:

2 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

Something here has been bugging me, and that’s the liner/head installation. In the Lotus Service Notes for the V8, it clearly states that the cylinder heads should be fitted within 4 hours of the liners being installed. 

Probably to allow the sealant to cure with the liners in their final position? Here the liners were maintained by the washers so it's more or less the same? — I am not discussing the fact it would be better/more secure to use the head directly (which totally makes sense to me but I have no experience in removing and installing a cylinder head)

The problems with washers, thin ones at that, is that they are just punched bits of metal with no actual guarantee that they are flat also they will deform as they are used - for the liners they need to be completely flat. This does not necessarily mean that this solution will not work, it's just dependant on the amount tolerance the cylinder head gasket can absorb. Using the cylinder head as the flat removes any such concerns /issues - assuming the heads have not warped of course.

[Barrykearley]

Please do remind me just how many cars in the USA have suffered repeated head gasket failure?

id be listening very hard to @mike_sekinger 

 

it does seem a lot of folks believe they can rebuild these engines - only for tears not to be far away

[MD355]

While we are having this conversation, can somebody explain to me why Lotus make the V8 an open deck engine, as opposed to a closed deck engine that other supercars of this era like the Ferrari F355 were using ?? Even if perfectly assembled, the Hylomar sealant seems to me like a time bomb waiting to start leaking again !! Plus I can only imagine that the strength of the cylinder sleeves / block is compromised as the walls of the block do not support at the top the sleeves...

 

[Chillidoggy]

Maybe Chapman decided to save some weight.

[Giniw]

3 hours ago, march said:

Using the cylinder head as the flat removes any such concerns /issues - assuming the heads have not warped of course.

Yes as I said that totally makes senses to me that the fitting cannot be better than by using the actual cylinder head.
I just said that because I understand that the sealant curing time is the reason why the head should be installed within 4 hours; as a different method has been used here there was no rush to install the head.

But should I ever have to put back the liners in an engine I will definitely use the head as an abutment indeed — unless it's stated otherwise in the corresponding workshop manual of course ^^

 

@MD355 > apparently better cooling and cheaper to cast? (https://drivetribe.com/p/what-the-hell-is-a-closed-deck-KlHVC3kQQ7i7GMYfykqsnA?iid=MBD6_Y_oT1-gLGszSsJX0A)

Edited October 24, 2019 by Giniw

[cweeden]

Hi Makis,

From memory (which is probably not a good place to start), aside from the liners/cylinder head fitment the other issue that I think is concerning people is that the cam wheels are bolted to the end of the camshafts without any key and only the torque of the single bolt (and correct sealant/thread lock) to maintain the correct timing. To tighten the bolt to the correct torque (which is probably quite high) you need to lock the camshaft in place which can only be done with the cam cover removed. If I am way off the mark, please can someone correct me. 

If I was you I would read the service notes yourself and satisfy yourself that a sensible approach is being taken.

I feel for you, it must be somewhat unpleasant to be a little in the middle of 'us' and your mechanic. Good luck, I hope it works out.

cheers

-Chris

[MD355]

Thanks for your feedback !! The process you describe with locking the camshafts in place is correct when you are just changing belts.. In my case everything was removed and reassembled... So in theory my mechanic should install dial gauges on the valves and time the engine properly.. In my case the mechanic says he has done it before and has put special marks on cam wheels to restore perfect timing... 

[cweeden]

Hi Makis,

I think you are confusing the setting pins used for setting up the timing (which can be installed with the cam covers in place) with the task of securing the camshafts when tightening the pulley bolts. I guess you could tighten these against the locking pins but you run the risk of damaging various bits and pieces, 100Nm is not insignificant.

cheers

-Chris

[mike_sekinger]

The engine builder has decided to save himself the trouble by not loosening the cam pulleys - and just reinstalling the complete shaft/pulley assy (and re-used front cam oil seal).   I guess that means installing the used belts as well..

[MD355]

Yes, this is true !! We replaced belts 9 months ago and since have done less than 1000 miles.

I asked him if we should replace belts (from my knowledge it is not good to stretch and reuse belts) but he said they are brand new and fine to use !!

God help me !!! LOL (Please be gentle with your responses !! Haha)