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At the end of my tether with crossgate and clutch issues - Gearchange/Gearbox/Clutch - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
nic996

At the end of my tether with crossgate and clutch issues

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I know this topic has been done to death but having read everything there is to read on the subject in the forum and further afield I’d like some advice nevertheless if possible. 

The background first. Complete vehicle rebuild including the gearbox with new CW & pinion. Gear shift assay was never removed and the crossgate cable is original. The rear part was upgraded for the SJ spherical joint and the clutch master cylinder, slave cylinder and clutch itself are all brand new. The red hydraulic hose was replaced with a braided item and the gearbox oil is fresh.

First of all I have the no reverse issue. It’s fine cold but as soon as the car is warm and by warm I mean within 5 or 10 minutes of idling,  it jumps out and is difficult to engage etc. and i can only drive up and down a longish driveway. It’s not even been on the open road yet. The engine is not running well at the moment (it’s booked in for a rolling road session next week to set up the ecu and injection) and idles sometimes at 2500revs at which point I can’t even get it into reverse or first. The gearbox oil is new. Sometimes when I’m reversing and press the clutch then a cacophony of grinding and all sorts of nonsense erupts and the clutch won’t disengage. And so to the second issue. According to a thread on piston heads a seemingly knowledgeable person reckons there should be 29.5mm of clutch travel (the thread may have been referring to a Stevens car) I’m not even achieving half of that. The pedal was adjusted correctly today with no effect. I tried to adjust the crossgate cable and had limited success. I can get in reverse with the engine off and get the car going but it quickly jumps out of gear. After two attempts to  adjust out the issue,  first gear then got tricky albeit only when the engine was racing. At normal idle it was ok. 

Sorry for the epic length of the post but I have been at this issue for two weeks now and I feel utterly defeated to the point that I’m considering selling the car. 

Thanks for reading

nic. 


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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Nic,

In sympathy with you but do not let the car go under these circumstances. You are feeling overwhelmed because troubles have stacked up but they are not likely major in nature I'd suggest. The clutch is quite possibly exhibiting the nasty tendency to stick disc to flywheel due to humidity related rust, the high idle speed very much compounding difficulty the sticking causes to engaging gears. One thing at a time, I suggest, as difficult as the car will be until some glitches are rectified. Regarding clutch travel I presume you refer to the movement at the clutch fork on bellhousing? Are the master and slave cylinders of correct diameters, and is the clutch pedal - master cylinder rod installed at the OEM pivot point on the pedal arm? 

Can't help with the jumping out of gear as I have no experience in that yet, though it just has to be a matter of adjustment.

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Are the bearings on the gear change relay pivot  worn? That could possibly affect movement in the front to back plane  of the gear lever and maybe that's why its jumping out of gear

This thing

https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/A082F4050K.htm

There are two different versions of these pivots this link is to the one for the older gearbox, the later boxes use a pivot with a 1:1 ratio

 


Normally Aspirated - and lovin' it!

EPSON003-1.jpg

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I've read some reverse switches, the one with the reverse wires in the back of the gearbox, are oversize and make the car jump out of reverse. Have you renewed this? If you have it may be the problem, my new one was sent with a shim to have less intrusion into the gearbox to rectify. 

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Thanks for the replies guys. To answer your questions   First off the reverse switch. I had a new switch with a spacer and to make sur I put back the original switch. All was good. 

I’m not sure about the pivot link. I’ll check it out. 

The master cylinders and slave cylinder sizes I am not sure about. I think the master cylinder doesn’t matter as far as I know as long as the rod is correct. The rod comes with the cylinder so presumably it’s correct. The slave cylinder is for a Land Rover. Perhaps it’s wrong? I don’t know. I guess a smaller bore will give a longer throw?

who knew this would be so complex. 


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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I’m back at it again going through each issue one at a time. So with the clutch throw I am only getting about 80mm of pedal travel. It could be the master cylinder is wrong but also there are two holes on the pedals. One marked b and one marked c for brake and clutch respectively. Stupidly as I now realise, many years ago when I refurbed the pedals I thought it would be a good idea to paint the pedals with wrinkle paint (I just discovered the stuff and got a little over enthusiastic). So which one is which? At the moment I have the brake pedal set to the uppermost hole and the clutch to the lower one. I just want to make double sure every potential issue is covered. The brakes seem to work well and is set to the upper one so a fair assumption would be that the clutch pedal is the lower hole 

 

thanks for any replies. 

 

Nic. 


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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Many will know I have battled with gearboxes and selectors and crossgate cables until Im blue in the face.  One thing I have discovered is the top plate of gearboxes can be different which in my view can make quite a difference.  Sure they all worked when they left the factory but nearly 40 years on it is a different story.  If you look on the underside of the gearbox top plate there is a spring.  Some are stronger and thicker than others.  Unfortunately I cant post a picture for some reason.

Thew top plate with the weaker spring I can put on any gearbox and either of my cars and I can set up gear selection.  The plate with the large spring I failed to set on one car and a nightmare to set on the other.  This is something Ive never seen spoken about before but in my experience a significant factor.  If I can find why I cant post a picture I will update this.

 

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Ok that’s another point to look at.

I believe the clutch is still an issue that I needs to be resolved first however. I think it is not opening enough which would make the gears hard to get due to  clutch drag.. There seems to be too little travel on the fork. Apparently it should be 30mm according to a thread on PistonHeads. I  have only about 15mm of travel. I found the answer finally to which hole on my clutch pedal is for the clutch and which the brake. For info it is the upper hole for clutch and lower for brake. Predictably mine was wrong. I swapped it and the pedal is much lighter now but the travel distance is hardly affected. Barely 1mm . So next stop is a new master cylinder. I have (if memory serves correct)a Land Rover mc. It’s probably the wrong part and hopefully it’s not giving enough travel. The pedal is short by about 20mm of travel. I suspect that will only give me a couple of mm more clutch fork throw but who knows, it might be enough. The adjustment on the cross gate seems to be very fine indeed so finger crossed. It arrives in a day or two so I will report back then. 


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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No there isn’t. There’s a main dealer but they have only been here for a handful of years and there are not many lotus specialists in Germany. A colleague has an s1 Elise and he said they weren’t knowledgeable. He takes his car to his native France for any major work! Talking of whom,  he was kind enough to photoshop a few changes cosmetically to the car today and i am fully fired up again! My boss’s boss suggested the changes and I wouldn’t argue with him. He’s been a car designer for twenty five years. 

 I’ll take a break tonight and hopefully the new hydraulics arrive and I will get stuck in again. If there’s one thing I am it’s determined, otherwise known as stubborn!! I will not be defeated...

I’ve attached the photoshopped pic to keep the thread interesting. The blackout on the wheels was supposed to be on the rear as well. It’s a work in progress. 

F74EA9A8-782B-4383-8F0E-14DB9AFF8561.jpeg


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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Well done, Nic! You are recovering your position nicely and will not regret it. I believe the cylinder sizes should be 22mm (.875 inch ) Slave,  either 17.8mm ( .70 inch ) or 16mm ( .625 inch ) Master. Important points to check include 19.5mm travel at the slave-fork point, little margin either way. Also your original M/C pushrod should be transferred onto any new cylinder and the free play must be to spec in order for full and proper release to be possible. Pedal travel is subordinate to these things, either M/C can be used according to driver preference as long as the two critical points above are maintained. 

Regarding the design Photoshop, what are the changes from present state?

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Thanks for the advice Steve. I’m still waiting for the parts to arrive but will make sure all the measurements are taken into account  the pushrod for the mc is long gone  it’s a case of adjusting the new push rod to make sure the pedal has the free play and travel required  

Changes in the photoshop are subtle. Grey along the lower part of the car. Mine is all white for now but the original S2 as you will know has black paint along the sill (rocker) and the front spoiler. My boss (who is a notable car designer) advised me to do the lower part darker as it emphasises the wedge a little more. And he is right. I didn’t think I would like it but it really works. Also the Centre of the front rim is painted black and the suspension is lower. The guy who photoshopped it for me didn’t like the wheel Centre black and stopped short of doI guess the rear wheel but I like it.   My car is currently sitting ridiculously high so I am hoping to achieve the better ride height. The rest of the changes will be paint and vinyl on the lower edge. 


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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The new master  and slave cylinders turned up last night and I managed to fit them this evening.  I adjusted the pedal exactly by the book also. Unfortunately it’s past 8pm now and my neighbours have small kids. It would be a little unsociable to drive the car up and down the drive which runs adjacent to their house. Anyway, it seems I have gained a couple of mm of clutch travel at most and now have about 16mm-16.5mm. A relatively long way from 19.5mm.

The question is, how critical is this measurement? I’m really starting to  wonder if the issue is the clutch itself. 


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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Well done Nic...

I was obviously lucky with mine, new hydraulics all round, but no changes to the box itself. Only took me a full day to find all the gears but not been out to road test yet, just a few yards back and forth, so fingers crossed on that one...

i agree though, that the cross gate adjustments are very finely set...half a turn either way from the optimum made reverse almost impossible to find....

I also found that my re-trimmed gaitor was fouling with the stick, preventing it from properly selecting 5th, so the foam scrim had to be surgically removed from the inside of that too.

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well done nic, and being stubborn is a good thing.  (it's my middle name lol) 

btw my fingers are itching to start working on the esprit again....  but I keep repeating myself to finish the europa first. 

 

 

Edited by lotus-62

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You also still not finished rick! We will be retired and wearing water tight trousers by the time these bloody cars are finished. 😄


The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit - Richard Pryor -1971

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