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What would Greta say???


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On 26/12/2019 at 08:28, C8RKH said:

If you really care for the planet and the environment then we need to stop breeding. We need to reduce the global population considerably.

I've been saying the same for some time too. As you will know - it us not a palatable message for the vast majority, but the reality is that every couple that creates 3 or more sprogs is forcing the next generation to be substantially more efficient with our resources just to stand still. And standing still is not tenable.

This is not an attack on multi-child families, but future generations will need to turn this ship.

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Please excuse me while I have a bit of a long rant here as I'm getting heartily sick of some people adopting the moral high ground based simply on misinformation or a complete lack of understanding of

The world population is almost double what it was when I was Greta's age in the 70s, urban population nearly triple. 80 million new consumers, and CO2 and methane producers a year. The problem with th

Well said Jonny this thread and some of the recent comments takes us towards a lotus forum I dare not to mention some respect of members opinions are not to be laughed at. We all have different views

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5 hours ago, mik said:

This is not an attack on multi-child families, but future generations will need to turn this ship.

Good point and you are right it is not an attack on multi child families, I had 3 kids.

You are also correct re it not being palatable and I suspect that even on here people will be cringing at the topic.

However, if you look at consumption per head then the brutal facts support the point. In the rich west, led by the US, and closely followed by the UK, consumption  per capita is just unsustainable. End of. As the middle class booms in large population centres like India, China, Brazil etc then the volume of consumption per capita rises at even higher annual level than in the already heavy consumption west. It's like a double multi-plyer effect.

Before anyone picks up the wrong idea, I am not saying that the west is good/acceptable and BIC is bad. You cannot blame people in the BIC for aspiration, after all we in the West have driven the more is great ideal.

However, until we start to address the fundamental issue of global population growth, everything else we do will just address symptoms, it will not effect a cure. Unpalatable? Hell yes. 

Glad it's not my problem to fix as I can just about change a lightbulb and that's it.

 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

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One thing Greta is correct about is the obsession with endless economic growth. It’s simply unsustainable.

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Only here once

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Queue titles for Logan's Run...................

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All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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Would be better to control birth population than kill people prematurely surely?  However, a better film comparison to use would be Charlton Heston's "Soylent Green". If you have never seen it is quite good, suspenseful, and the ending is quite frightening when you think about it. Though their solution does fix two issues at once I suppose.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Soylent Green was another film I was going to mention as well.

If I recall correctly, didn't China have a one baby per couple law years ago? I could be completely wrong though.

I suppose the thing with controlling birth population is the ethics of it all.

What do you do if a couple get pregnant again? Forced termination? Some groups have gone to court to stop raped women that fall pregnant from being allowed to carry through with this. Are a couple allowed to have a second child if their first child dies by mishap? Or have thy 'had their one' and that is it?

Both ends of the population being controlled treads on a very slippery slope.

And that is probably a very large thread slip from the original topic.

Back to your regular viewing,

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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1 minute ago, ramjet said:

Soylent Green was another film I was going to mention as well.

If I recall correctly, didn't China have a one baby per couple law years ago? I could be completely wrong though.

I suppose the thing with controlling birth population is the ethics of it all.

What do you do if a couple get pregnant again? Forced termination? Some groups have gone to court to stop raped women that fall pregnant from being allowed to carry through with this.

Both ends of the population being controlled treads on a very slippery slope.

I agree, which is why no-one wants to go there. So, we will see an accelerating increase in human population (through birth rates and people living longer), we will surpass peak population, and then the many dystopian destiny's as portrayed in films like BladeRunner et al will come true and those few that have will live in sheer opulence and luxury (you could argue that this is already here with the super rich and their £50m+ yachts, £2-5m sports cars and multiple £10m+ residences) whilst everyone else lives off the scraps to keep the opulent few in their palaces with clean air, water etc.

As a final thing, look at the air pollution caused by the current fires in Australia and their impact is now being felt 1,000 miles away in New Zealand. Sort of makes us tackling car pollution look like a meaningless task and yet again serves to show the power of nature over man.  The planet will exact its revenge on humankind for its excesses when it wants to and there will be shit all we will be able to do about it, Greta or no Greta!

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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5 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

The ONLY way for me is Hydrogen fuel cells. Pure and simple

I agree re your points above Kimbers with the exception of this one!

For me, we need to take a step back from the hype (as that is what EV's are - corporate hype fuelled by greed from individuals) and we need to take a long term view, something that is damn near impossible to do when you have politicians elected on 3-5 years terms at best.

First thing we need to do is to establish a National Energy and Transport Unit - this needs to be split from direct political control (although it does need to remain accountable) and it should be given a rolling 20 year mandate. Only when you start to plan for, and act, on a longer time frame will you really make a difference and you will then also avoid the pitfalls of going down hype driven dead ends with all of the waste (materials, cash and time) associated with it.

The solution is not electric. Nor is it Hydrogen. It is also not coal, nuclear, or oil and gas. It definitely is not wind, solar or hydro.  The solution we need is an optimised mix of all of these things to provide long term stability, sustainability AND to reduce the overall effect on the environment whilst safe guarding jobs.  To say it is only one thing or the other just upsets the balance, and whilst you fix one problem, you find you create 5 others. That is the trap of short term, blinkered thinking.

We have a finite amount of resources on the planet. Some are easier to get than others. Some are more polluting than others. But when you take into account the "cost" of transporting resources from one side of the planet to the other, then you see that some of the options do not make sense. 

We are now seeing over the past 12 months an increasing adoption of Hydrogen. It has not hit the mainstream press just yet as they are being lobbied and paid to push Electric. There is a huge amount of corporate and private wealth tied into ensuring EV's succeed DESPITE the costs!  It will be like Dieselgate all over again and we will find we were duped into something that ended up being bad, but ONLY because the protagonists were allowed to lie and cheat for so long and to evade real scrutiny.

So, we need an energy strategy that provides a balance. Everything needs to be considered and we need the right energy source for the right application. Renewable is not dependable, so it is totally shite for base load, so instead of accepting that we get the battery manufacturers now insisting that Battery storage for renewable energy is the holy grail. Complete and utter bullshit in my humble opinion, but it is trendy so what do I know.

So, until we start to tackle the problem properly. Through an independent Group, that is accountable, with a long term strategy, we will lurch from one "fad" to the next, from one trend to another, creating one new problem after another.

It was not that many years ago that we used to build national infrastructure with a view to it lasting for decades, millennia even! How far back we have gone from the vision of the Victorian pioneers!  Progress, pah, bullshit. Not in how we manage, plan and deliver national infrastructure.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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No one will ever have a cohesive policy because they are firstly informed by either those in business or those Lobby Groups who are normally in a minority and extreme in their views (Point in case the Topic of this conversation). Anyone in the know....who REALLY knows, Knows that EV is not viable and definately NOT green.

Secondly they are only in Govt for 5 years so tend to only have short term goals. Any good work is normally reversed by the next (and normally opposite) party that gets in.

Thirdly I don't think they care. I really don't. There are things they can do....right now.....to change things hugely. Ban micro plastics in face creams, shower gels etc. Ban certain forms of single use plastic like drinks bottles and only allow Glass. Offer a recycle refund on each bottle. I could go on. Like you say, the reason these things haven't been inplemented may be Big business not liking it. But I do also think theres a certain amount of it being on the "too hard" pile.

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Oh I agree with your last post 100% @Kimbers.  Too hard and no votes nor importantly money in it (e.g. Non Exec positions, advisory positions, board roles etc... when out of office).

I 100% agree with you re EV's and for a long time I've felt like a lone voice in the wilderness as no one, literally no one, wanted to listen.  We all know where this planet is heading and the general consensus is fook it, as long as it's not in my life time I really don't give a shit. Now, where did I leave my 3 phones, 6 ipads, 2 Xboxes, 15 TV's, etc etc etc etc.....

Greta can shout all she wants but it won't change a damn thing. The celebrity press will tire of her and move on to the next one.  I wish her well, but if she wants to shout at me, then she can bog off as I don't need her, or anyone like her, to tell me what to do. It's all hypocrisy and stage managed anyway. Dieselgate 2 - the revenge...  Lol...

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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8 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

One thing Greta is correct about is the obsession with endless economic growth. It’s simply unsustainable.

"If you're not growing, you're dying" is a common business mantra. I suppose it has its roots in personal greed. Shareholders want more money, a business that they invest in must demonstrate that they can generate more money than other companies. If not, then they won't be invested in, they will suffer and possibly fail. It's easy to cast blame on big business but I think people should look closer to home to find the real culprit. 

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Robin it's greed. Greed is the new economy. Venture vultures. Money vultures. They collect and pool the cash of the wealthy and then they use that cash as leverage to buy businesses and then they leverage the fook out of them. Strip the assets. Then move on. They are like huge corporate combine harvesters!  Many a good company has fallen down to them and very few have survived them. That and greedy, useless CFO's and Accountants who have no clue outside of a spreadhseet.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Take my football team.  Years and years under the control of clueless Amercian Feckwits who had access to cheap money on the markets.  At one point we were paying something like £20m in annual interest on the debt that they had used to buy the club with. I mean, for flooks sake, really! This is what usually happens. Cheap money is used by clueless feckwits to take control of a business for quick spin and profit.

Then along came a smart US business man, with a long term plan. My god, what a difference now for that club. And here's the rub. They've gone from a club paying millions in interest a year on debts, to one that is making millions in profits. They have increased the value of the club from millions to a billion! No short term goal there. No pissing about on short term tactics. Played the long game and won, big style. It's time people woke up and realised that if "you're not growing (at the speed of light) you're not dying". It's bullshit mantra's and boy phrases like that that have killed many a good business.

Yes, shareholders want a good return. But there is a big difference between the average man on the street shareholder who firstly wants to protect his "pot", and then secondly wants to see a modest but sustainable growth. Versus the entitled shites who just want to maximise short term returns and to hell with any consequences, impacts, loss of jobs for others, as long as they can fuel their jet, sail their yachts, what's the harm!

Jeez, I'm almost sounding like a Corbynite there!

 

 

 

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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15 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Yes, shareholders want a good return. But there is a big difference between the average man on the street shareholder who firstly wants to protect his "pot", and then secondly wants to see a modest but sustainable growth. Versus the entitled shites who just want to maximise short term returns and to hell with any consequences, impacts, loss of jobs for others, as long as they can fuel their jet, sail their yachts, what's the harm!

The average man on the street will likely have a savings account. That money will be invested in a range of portfolios, most of which will contain equities. Just a somewhat diluted form of greed.

Football is a funny business as it folds in tribal passion, belief and hope. Stronger and more tangible emotions than a quant type analysis of a generic business. And anyway, try supporting a 'Jewish' football team if you want to experience real 'so near yet so far' disappointment!! :) A team that as a business is going great guns, as a football team, less so.

23 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Robin it's greed. Greed is the new economy.

Don't know if it's new. Maybe rather an economic framework that's been around for a few hundred years that has pandered to the inherent greed that is in all of us. We're just a bit better at exploiting that greed nowadays.

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8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

However, a better film comparison to use would be Charlton Heston's "Planet of the Apes". If you have never seen it is quite good, suspenseful, and the ending is quite frightening when you think about it. Though their solution does fix two issues at once I suppose.

EFA :P

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10 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Good point and you are right it is not an attack on multi child families, I had 3 kids.

 

It's OK Andy. As Jennifer and I had none, if you wish to clear your conscience you can transfer a share of responsibility to us and reduce your apparent contribution to population growth by 50%, :P.

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Part of the issue. We have a generation who have never been more connected in so many formats and so able to mobilise and to change the world for the better but ............

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C8RKH question for all you Greta huggers if I may. What actually has she changed? Whatreal tangible difference has she made? 

Not a Greta hugger but if I may say she as a lot of grumpy old men on this thread talking about climate change 🤷‍♂️

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3 minutes ago, scotty435 said:

question for all you Greta huggers if I may. What actually has she changed?

Probably not her undies. Climate change innit.

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13 hours ago, Alfa2Evora said:

It's OK Andy. As Jennifer and I had none, if you wish to clear your conscience you can transfer a share of responsibility to us and reduce your apparent contribution to population growth by 50%, :P.

Unfortunately my first born son died young so my impact has already reduced by a 3rd.

It's a tough call as on the one side, people should be allowed to have the kids, or not, they want (although I do object to people who have kids they can't afford and expect everyone else to cough up to support them - sorry, but that's just being a self centred, righteous, toe rag in my eyes) but then as our consumption increases, year on year, you think about the sustainability of it all.

We're not going to fix it on a Lotus forum, though I suspect we can evidence and demonstrate we have a better understanding of the issues than the bloody politicians do.

8 hours ago, Mysterae said:

 Yes, marketing gold dust. And people still think she's just an innocent expressing her own views and not influenced by anyone at all. Yeah right, I'm off in to the garden to chase some fairies.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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20 hours ago, C8RKH said:

So, we need an energy strategy that provides a balance. Everything needs to be considered and we need the right energy source for the right application. Renewable is not dependable, so it is totally shite for base load, so instead of accepting that we get the battery manufacturers now insisting that Battery storage for renewable energy is the holy grail. Complete and utter bullshit in my humble opinion, but it is trendy so what do I know.

I completely agree with this idea.  It may have been you earlier in this thread that commented about the obsession with quarterly growth; as I see it that's what drives "what is trendy" and BEVs are trendy because its a fast growth area right now.

I anyone watches James May on Drivetribe, he's currently running both a Tesla and a Toyota (Hydrogen fuel cell) as a bit of an experiment to compare the two.  He made a really good point, BEV's (Tesla) work toward solving the problem of climate impact for cars; at least as far as running them go with HFC-EV working toward solving the problem for the planet.

But as you say, the better strategy is the application of the right energy source for the right application, allowing preservation of jobs, economy and non-waste of existing infrastructure.

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