Is electric really the answer

[Dan E]

A while ago @Bibs popped around in his electric car which got me thinking about the wife's 435i which was doing around 4k a year. So i sat down and done some maths (proper math not man math) and a couple of weeks ago we sold the 435i (via Motorway which is absolutely brilliant sold for asking price in 6 hours)  and bought a pre registered i3 with all the bits and pieces on it for 10.5k off list. So our fuel bill will go from £1800 a year to about £180, free tax, no congestion or ULEZ and it is absolutely brilliant. It drives like a rear wheel drive 205 GTi, you can pre condition it from your phone so it is de-misted and warm when you get in it it is also stupid fast from 0 to 30. I have honestly fallen in love with it. 

I obvs still have the van for any long trips so i don't think you could have one as your only car but for the missus it is perfect. So i never thought i would say it but nothing else makes sense for a run around now. 

[C8RKH]

I can see @Dan E how the I3 makes sense for you as a run around. And to be honest, I can see the worth of an EV as a local run around. But NOT as you're main car. Well certainly not for me. I'd need a reliable, stress free, no worry range of 400 miles from an EV for that as I do frequent trips across the border to Englandshire. But as a second car as a run around, I'd go cheap like a 5 door Corsa/205 type EV. The math would make even more sense then and the cherry on the top would be people wouldn't think I was a cock as a I drove a BMW, the common mans Ford

 

 

[MPx]

1 hour ago, Dan E said:

I have honestly fallen in love with it. 

I'm sure you'll continue to love it too Dan - assuming your use is as a two seat/two door.  We've had ours since 2018 and its been ideal for exactly the purposes you suggest, I expect it to be with us for many more years - we love it too.  With the back seats down its a useful load carrier - dump runs etc., and its fun to use for destinations up to 40 miles or so away - which covers an awful lot of what we do so it genuinely an alternative most of the time.  With the seats up, the boot is a bit small and the rear doors are a right pain after you get over the joy of novelty.  So not ideal for more than 2 people in regular use.  My leccy deal finished at the worst possible moment so my rates are now 27p day and 17p overnight.  The £2 fill up that we had been used to is a distant memory.   Maybe 6p a mile now compared to 30p a mile for petrol in the Rangey - but I still prefer being in the Rangey especially on a longer run.

[eUKenGB]

On 04/11/2021 at 13:04, C8RKH said:

Significant Lithium deposits now confirmed in Cornwall and the West Country. This will be a game changer for the UK and our push to an electric economy and for our efforts to being an "ideal" location for Gigafactories.

 

And in other news....  (the truth eventually comes out!)

Volvo admits emissions from making electric cars can be 70% HIGHER than petrol models - but once they've done 70,000 miles they become greener

• Carbon-intensive production for battery and steel makes EVs more polluting
• It says at current global electricity mix, an EV needs to be driven almost 70k miles to offset its higher production emissions
• This can be reduced to less than 30k miles if EVs are charged with green energy
• It has called on world leaders to accelerate the clean energy investment
• Swedish maker is publishing emissions transparency reports for all EVs released

It's easy to quote stuff like that, but it fundamentally isn't true when you take all factors into account. You cannot take statements like that at face value. You have to understand exactly what figures are being used as nonsense like that conveniently leaves out the 'costs' of obtaining and refining all the fossil fuel that will be used by the vehicle. So it's not a true picture at all.

As always, it depends on your agenda.

[C8RKH]

Remember, this was a press release from Volvo, not a party political broadcast from C8RKH 

Of course, the green eco marigold brigade constantly wheel stuff like this out and we are just expected to open our mouths and swallow it. But heh ho.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Bravo73

[gregs24]

20 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I’m confused, but new to PHEVs so be gentle. If you started with a virtually flat HV battery, yet managed 80 miles electric only from a total of 360 miles, then surely the petrol engine was charging the battery for you and propelling the car for the other 280 miles? When I select the battery charge mode on my Passat, it takes many miles of petrol running at 2000 rpm to even add 1 mile of battery charge. I’ve just completed a 250 mile round trip today in hybrid mode (inc. charging) and yes the engine kicks in and out almost imperceptibly, but you don’t get something for nothing do you, apart from the little bit of regen charging? The battery level gradually halved to 14 miles by the end of the journey. How many miles were actually completed electric only, I don’t know, since it would have been a combination of many short distances.

As I see it, basically you get 30 miles for *“free”* from a fully charged battery and everything else is down to the petrol engine, either charging the battery or propelling the car. I guess that there is the ongoing benefit of the relatively low rpm when the engine is running, compared to red-lining in each gear!

Once the HV battery is flat from external charge it then acts as a self charging hybrid. It doesn't use the petrol engine to charge, but uses regenerative braking to add charge to the battery, this can also occur on any downhill section where the car either runs on electric or regenerates. This works best on A and B roads with lots of braking and hills / slowing down where the momentum is usually lost as heat in the brakes. Instead of using the friction brakes it uses the electric motor backwards as a generator. Even on motorways on downhill sections it will generate electricity which is then stored in the battery for use on the next flat or uphill section reducing the use of the ICE. It depends on the car but the regenerative charging can be very significant, and in addition the amount of power you need to go at say 50mph on a flat bit of road is very low once moving (between 15kW and 20kW in the Kuga) so with a short downhill followed by a flat stretch the ICE may not be in action for a mile or more. In the Kuga on the motorway almost as soon as the road goes downhill, even gently, the ICE is off and it is running on electricity.

When a PHEV battery is 'flat' it always has something in reserve (about 5%) to allow the performance to be the same in all conditions, otherwise if it was really flat you would really notice a lack of torque in an emergency.

You may also want to use different modes in different circumstances. Charging the battery using the engine is pointless and inefficient but an EV later type mode that retains charge for later may be of use. This makes the car run as a self charging hybrid rather than using the plug in charge which is the best thing for motorways and dual carriageways, saving the EV only mode for the start and end of the journey on local roads and in towns etc. If you just let it run automatically it will often just burn through the electric charge in no time once on a motorway, far better to save it for the slower fiddly bits when electric only really works.

 

[electro_boy]

4 hours ago, eUKenGB said:

conveniently leaves out the 'costs' of obtaining and refining all the fossil fuel that will be used by the vehicle. So it's not a true picture at all.

Genuinely interested, do you have any numbers where someone has factored this into the equation?

[pete]

6 hours ago, MPx said:

.  My leccy deal finished at the worst possible moment so my rates are now 27p day and 17p overnight.  The £2 fill up that we had been used to is a distant memory.   Maybe 6p a mile now compared to 30p a mile for petrol in the Rangey - but I still prefer being in the Rangey especially on a longer run.

Have just switched to utility warehouse. Their overnight rate is 7.9p

[Frickin_idiot]

I am resistant to forced change, I am of the belief that the market should decide what is best. In particular when it comes to technology the best solution is for people to move when the product matures to a level that makes it suitable.

Ham fisted government forcing a particular route using the blunt instrument of taxation isn’t the right way to go. Government usually make the wrong decision. 

 

[MPx]

4 hours ago, pete said:

Have just switched to utility warehouse. Their overnight rate is 7.9p

Sounds good....but I only want leccy and they only do bundles (at the moment at least) so no use to me.

[pete]

I have electric only. You don't have to take a bundle

[ramjet]

For the sake of the exercise, I looked at the electric vehicles that are available in Australia. I was thinking about some sort of small van type thing. Think Renault Kangoo for instance.

The small engined ICE is about $27k, the all electric one is about $50k.

Never going to happen at that price.

I'll be keeping my Holden Rodeo that I bought for $3.5k. Maybe I just convert it to electric?

[gregs24]

Wow! The Kangoo electric starts from £28k in the UK compared to £20k for the diesel. With ULEZ zones in many cities and considerably lower running costs the electric version is a sure fire winner here

[MJON]

I’m not averse to electric cars but if people choose to use all the gadgetry that’s on offer?  They do come with limitations. Why on earth would you want to rely on your phone to start your car 🙄
Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306 

[pete]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-59359263.   BBC News - Rolls-Royce says its all-electric aircraft 'is world's fastest'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-59359263.      Impressive performance,just need to increase the range

[comem47]

I can't see total EV.  A winter storm wipes out the local grid and you're screwed to recharge. At least with a hybrid you got backup.

[Mysterae]

Hybrids have been described to me as a bit like that adaptor that allowed you to play a Betamax tape in a VHS player. 

[Barrykearley]

News this morning that all new build houses will have to have EV points. 
 

just wait until this is watered down nicely and glorified 13a outside sockets are whats fitted. They are indeed already available to buy.

[C8RKH]

This is just the usual misguided, headline grabbing, bollocks.  Look at the density of new builds, especially in the congested areas of England. Houses are being crammed in and if you are really lucky you get an "allocated" parking spot (just the one) that can often be quite some way from your home. So how is that going to work then?

 

[exeterjeep]

2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

News this morning that all new build houses will have to have EV points.

Saw this, probably an inept attempt to look green without looking at the implications - eg the local transformers we have are not up to the job of having a few cars added to them, let along 2 cars per property. So loads of investment needed in the infrastructure. Also lots of new builds will be blocks of flats, social housing where car access is limited. Did see 3 electric cars on last nights top gear. Neighbour who works for western power distribution was thinking of the polestar for his next company car, but would need upgrades to our local supply/transformer.

The latest chargers also need to be connected to the internet - so more improvements needed? Some areas have poor/no mobile signal either.

[Kimbers]

What many of us in the Industry have been saying for ages:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/11/19/electric-cars-not-as-eco-as-policymakers-claim-says-executive-who-developed-nissan-leaf/?sh=7bae20ee7ba9

 

[Barrykearley]

8 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

The latest chargers also need to be connected to the internet - so more improvements needed

I wonder why 😂

 

anyone whom cannot see what’s coming is frankly daft or plain stupid. Get ready for EV tax on electricity 

[exeterjeep]

16 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

I wonder why 😂

Its to do with setting/controlling the times the car can be charged and even supply power back to the grid at overload times.

[Barrykearley]

It really won’t be chap.

[C8RKH]

@exeterjeep, Mr. @Barrykearley is correct and they are already trialling separate tariffs for charging your EV at home that will be subject to different taxation rules to the electricity you use to power your home. The Government needs to replace the £40bn a year paid through fuel/road taxes with a similar level of income from EV's.