Is electric really the answer

[Bibs]

The trouble with that is the numbers. To have an equivalent to a 550 mile range in my VW (£65), it costs me £6 in electric. If tax on electricity was to be the equivalent to fuel duty/VAT (£36 of the £65 is tax), it would be 600% which is a bit strong really.

[C8RKH]

Don't see what the problem is. One tax falls another rises. Simple economics. Also, no doubt you got a government "INCENTIVE" to buy your new EV, whereas new non EV purchasers just get a splintered broom stick up their arses. At some point, just like with the FiT and Renewable subsidies you need to move from handing out incentives to collecting in taxes. Too much cross subsidy from non-green to "green" iniatives. Why should my taxes pay you to get an EV? 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Bravo73

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

@exeterjeep, Mr. @Barrykearley is correct and they are already trialling separate tariffs for charging your EV at home that will be subject to different taxation rules to the electricity you use to power your home. The Government needs to replace the £40bn a year paid through fuel/road taxes with a similar level of income from EV's.

Am not disagreeing, there will need to be a raft of changes to how we pay for EV's and charging etc. How those without driveways or in flats etc will be able to manage.

I know the guy next door works for our power distribution company and they are working on a number of schemes, he thinks they will have 3 phase power installed to their property (may be next year) - one for the house, one for the stable block (which currently has its own supply/meter)  and one for charging his EV when it arrives. He is currently thinking of a polestar.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I guess we won’t need to raise as much tax for the public purse when EVs are the norm. I can envisage an idyllic Greta Britain where the air is clean, the sea keeps its distance, the weather starts behaving again, citizens live in insulated homes and autonomous vehicles transport us around safely and legally.

[mg4lotus]

See what you did there 😉

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I guess we won’t need to raise as much tax for the public purse when EVs are the norm. I can envisage an idyllic Greta Britain where the air is clean, the sea keeps its distance, the weather starts behaving again, citizens live in insulated homes and autonomous vehicles transport us around safely and legally.

Ha Ha, get it, I think that the government will always want to raise loads of tax, after all they can easily find thousands of ways to spend (sometimes waste) our taxes.

[Barrykearley]

10 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@exeterjeep, Mr. @Barrykearley is correct and they are already trialling separate tariffs for charging your EV at home that will be subject to different taxation rules to the electricity you use to power your home. The Government needs to replace the £40bn a year paid through fuel/road taxes with a similar level of income from EV's.

And the vat on car charging was sneaked upto 20% last March - not sure I saw that in the press though. 
 

western power on some new builds in the midlands are now putting 3ph to each house. One for solar, one for the house, one for car charging. Get ready for the tax grab it’s so obvious it’s coming.
 

Anyway Peppa pig is well worth chatting about.

9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Why should my taxes pay you to get an EV? 

Fret not - your electric bill is subsiding my PV payments 🍻

[Frickin_idiot]

10 hours ago, Bibs said:

The trouble with that is the numbers. To have an equivalent to a 550 mile range in my VW (£65), it costs me £6 in electric. If tax on electricity was to be the equivalent to fuel duty/VAT (£36 of the £65 is tax), it would be 600% which is a bit strong really.

Road Pricing will be introduced- I am convinced 

[C8RKH]

Eventually, yes, I think you are right.

Motorways will be sold to highest bidder and ANPR used to turn them into toll roads. You see, smart motorways, it all fits....

Edited November 24, 2021 by Bravo73

[exeterjeep]

20 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

He is currently thinking of a polestar.

Spoke to him last night, well it seems he has thunk some more, it being a company car he has decided it will be too expensive on his monthly payments, so will stick with something that has a proper engine. (And he works for western power distribution )

[Kimbers]

21 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@exeterjeep, Mr. @Barrykearley is correct and they are already trialling separate tariffs for charging your EV at home that will be subject to different taxation rules to the electricity you use to power your home. The Government needs to replace the £40bn a year paid through fuel/road taxes with a similar level of income from EV's.

It was talked about at a recent Motor Industry awards ceremony and I have written about it elsewhere on here and elsewhere. So the low down is that your 2.4kW 3 din plug socket is linked to your household electricity and would take one of the new era of EV's (Kia EV6) 31 hours for a full charge. You can have a 7.4kW charger fitted at home, 9.5 hours or a "Totem" style 22kW. But many homes will need some work to do that as it's a 3 phase supply rather than a one phase. The upshot is that if you want a "quick" charge, you will most likely be restricted to going to a Garage or pay chargepoint (unless you can use a freeby regularly).

So, clear so far? Ok, this is where it gets a bit sketchy. The Govt has currently unannounced plans to force the electricity companies to separate car charging from household electricity so it can tax car charging electricity at the same rate it currently taxes petrol. Great incentive hey? They will do this by ensuring anything above a 2.4kW charge is separated on your bill. Some of you will query several other things. Yes, to ensure you don't use your domestic supply and trickle charge your car on a 2.4kW plug and not be taxed out of existence, they would have to outlaw home trickle charging and ensure car companies don't allow the current "2 cable when you buy the car" situation. Before you say they can't do that, We have already seen this.

Certain car companies (one French one) will not supply a trickle charger because the French Govt say its a fire hazard. This is being looked at as a way to ensure you don't use cheap electricity (Sort of a red diesel situation). Do you want even more conspiracy? They are looking at making the car companies Null en Void your Warranty if a car trickle charged has any issues.

NOW!!!Take into account that a trickle charge is by far the best way to protect your battery life and car and is much cheaper as a way of charging your car even now, than pumping a much higher charge in. There is no justifyable reason to do all of this other than to protect an income stream.

What else? Well currently, if you have an electric company car you get taxed 1% of its value at your tax rate (20-40%). Next year this will be 2% (100% increase). Still much cheaper than a diesel or Petrol at 11-20% I hear you say? and an PHEV at 8%? Yes it is. 

The year after that its planned to be 4% then 5% the following year or 2. Now.......we start thinking of car values (P11D values). A top Spec Kia Niro has a P11D of approx £29k. An e-Niro same spec £38k. Thats £9k more and hence the E- Niro will actually become more expensive and raise more tax revenue at just 9% tax against the normal Niro. Electric Company cars will be back at 10% car tax within 10 years guaranteed! The Govt will say "Yes but look its only 10% against the 15% on a petrol car" but will be pulling in more money from you as the car is so much more expensive!

There is so much more going on as well. For example they think there are too many cars. We suspect there will be massive tax increases on all cars by some "Ecology" based made up reason. Why? Well if all the cars were swapped for electric then not only will there be a huge drain of electricity when everyone plugs in at the end of the night, but the infrastructure (3 phase supply everywhere, increased pylon requirement, etc etc), required to charge all the cars out and about on business and driving around the country goes into the trillions of £'s. Its simpler to massively reduce the number of cars than it is to try and find and build the infrastructure.

So the upshot of this huge essay I have just written is. There is nothing, absolutely nothing about ours or any other Govts policies that will make Electric cars cheaper to run or fuel. This is not about encouraging Green Policies by use of making things cheaper, this is about making everything more expensive unless you do as they want and can funnel you down the route they want to tax you more. 

Sound like a conspiracy theory? Well I am not that kind of person and its not just me saying it (as an Industry expert for 20 year). Its just plain common sense. If they go down the current route they will be £30 billion worse off in Fuel duty. £9 Billion worse off in Road Fund Licence (Road Tax), £21 Billion on VAT on Fuel Duty plus £15 billion or so from other taxes and revenue streams within the car industry. 

[C8RKH]

Nice post @Kimbers.  Sums up where we are with these "GREEN" initiatives, which is to get the ball rolling Governments try to "incentivise" early adopters, with subsidies paid for by non "early adopters" to build a head of steam that they then use to justify subsequent legislation to force every one to adopt.

 

[Kimbers]

21 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

How those without driveways or in flats etc will be able to manage.

In Simple terms there are already plans in place that your local Council will have to install "Residence only" charging points, maybe within the Street lighting. And then You will be both charged normal electricty and tax with a swipe card AND the local council will charge you a "permit to charge in a public place". Plus the residence owners/company can also charge a maintenance amount. HOWEVER you can run your cable from your flat, in which case you will need a license (Chargeable) AND the council will need to make sure there is no trip hazard. Take into account this is in a County (Norfolk) where there are only 144 charge points in the whole County and 44 of which are within Norwich City limits, so you are pretty stuffed if you can't charge from home! Unless you want to queue up for 3 days to join the Million other motorists waiting.

[C8RKH]

2 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

In Simple terms there are already plans in place that your local Council will have to install "Residence only" charging points, maybe within the Street lighting. And then You will be both charged normal electricty and tax with a swipe car AND the local council will charge you a "permit to charge in a public place". Plus the residence owners/company can also charge a maintenance amount. HOWEVER you can run your cable from your flat, in which case you will need a license (Chargeable) AND the council will need to make sure there is no trip hazard. Take into account this is in a County where there are only 144 charge points in the whole County and 44 of which are within Norwich City limits

As I have said over and over again, based on current UK infrastructure Electric Vehicles make the most sense for the middle class - well paid so they can "afford" the higher lease costs (as they don't buy these things) and with a 99.9% certainty that they have a drive/courtyard/garage to host their own charging point.

God help the significant portion of the population that live in these type of places, as you describe @Kimbers they are going to have a splintered broom stick shoved up their arse! Oh and as per the pictures below, you will note the council will need to install the lamp posts before they can use them as EV charging posts etc.....

A lot of people are simply dismissing these points as "naysayers who are seeking the negatives" - I would say it is realists saying to the fan boys "stop smoking dope!"

[Gjk]

Watch Panorama now!

[Gjk]

WOW! Didn’t realise the electric revolution was that bad! Yes, a lot of emphasis on Tesla but, are the others any better?

Batteries are a nightmare to produce with regards to raw materials. Why is the future so blinkered towards electric?

[Gjk]

Rather than mine coal and exploit crude oil, as a species we are now going to deplete the earth of finite minerals in order to satisfy a certain warming agenda. I don’t think this is the best answer but then again would the inherent dangers with hydrogen cells work either?

The carburettor would have been a lot more efficient if the fuel giants hadn’t bought the rights too them in order to prevent evolution of the product.

[Frickin_idiot]

13 hours ago, C8RKH said:

As I have said over and over again, based on current UK infrastructure Electric Vehicles make the most sense for the middle class - well paid so they can "afford" the higher lease costs (as they don't buy these things) and with a 99.9% certainty that they have a drive/courtyard/garage to host their own charging point.

God help the significant portion of the population that live in these type of places, as you describe @Kimbers they are going to have a splintered broom stick shoved up their arse! Oh and as per the pictures below, you will note the council will need to install the lamp posts before they can use them as EV charging posts etc.....

A lot of people are simply dismissing these points as "naysayers who are seeking the negatives" - I would say it is realists saying to the fan boys "stop smoking dope!"

I cannot articulate how furious I am with the current direction of travel.

[eUKenGB]

16 hours ago, Gjk said:

Rather than mine coal and exploit crude oil, as a species we are now going to deplete the earth of finite minerals in order to satisfy a certain warming agenda. I don’t think this is the best answer but then again would the inherent dangers with hydrogen cells work either?

The big point being missed is that coal and other fossil fuels are finite and non-recoverable, whereas all the components of a battery can be recovered and re-cycled. So once enough batteries have been made, all new ones can be manufactured purely from what is re-cycled from old batteries. The raw materials in a battery are NEVER used up. At the end of a battery's life, they're all still there.

Not saying it's simple or that it is happening right now, BUT it is possible and is the ultimate goal, whereas burning fossil fuels will always be one way only. All the arguments against battery manufacture seem to conveniently ignore this one simple, but rather significant fact.

[gregs24]

On 24/11/2021 at 09:02, exeterjeep said:

Spoke to him last night, well it seems he has thunk some more, it being a company car he has decided it will be too expensive on his monthly payments, so will stick with something that has a proper engine. (And he works for western power distribution )

Does he know about salary sacrifice to pay the lease costs on an EV - I'm sure that will make a big difference.

[exeterjeep]

Have no idea, he is a manager so should be able to look into what would be possible????.

[gregs24]

Just in case he hasn't here is some information

Salary Sacrifice | LeasePlan

 

[exeterjeep]

Ok cheers I will see him, I'll print some of it off.

[Kimbers]

On 25/11/2021 at 13:26, eUKenGB said:

The big point being missed is that coal and other fossil fuels are finite and non-recoverable, whereas all the components of a battery can be recovered and re-cycled. So once enough batteries have been made, all new ones can be manufactured purely from what is re-cycled from old batteries. The raw materials in a battery are NEVER used up. At the end of a battery's life, they're all still there.

Not saying it's simple or that it is happening right now, BUT it is possible and is the ultimate goal, whereas burning fossil fuels will always be one way only. All the arguments against battery manufacture seem to conveniently ignore this one simple, but rather significant fact.

Whilst I agree with your assumptions the technology isn't there right now and needs huge investment in the science and then techniques. several things we know right now
1. It's dangerous as one slip and the Battery can explode (This has happened in tests)
2. Currently it has to be done by Hand making it hugely expensive (Guess who will pay)
3. There will always be a level of Toxic waste from any recycling making 100% recycling very difficult
4. It's a long way off, making the UK target of 2030 impossible. Until then they will continue to be landfilled or stored in Toxic dumps. 2050 would be more realistic
5. Electric is only ever a stop gap and you talk about Fossil Fuels being Finite but forget the materials in EV's that are also finite
6. Lithium has huge unmined stockpiles that will last 140years.....at current usage. Add in an increase from 11 million EV's to 145 million just in the UK by 2030, then multiply that by the world and no one knows just how long it will last. Did I mention mining it is very destructive on the environment and costly to move about?
7. I don't believe anything the Govt or Climate Scientists say when it comes to EV's and having 25 years experience myself and my father 50 years in the Industry I can assure you Electric would not be the way to go if it was all run by people who know what they are doing. They should be putting money into other methods because believe me, once they have spent the Trillion £'s (made up figure) required to get the infrastructure from manufacture of batteries to charging points, the whole electrical system being upgraded to 3 phase electric etc etc up and running there is no way they are changing to a better way even if they develop it!
8. What you have here is Climate scientists, Politicians and Activists basically dictating car design. It's nuts! It's like a Carpenter designing a Fridge! I know you will all want an example so here you go! Current EU and British Production Regulations and Co2 output on new cars has been designed and implemented by Politicians in the EU to reduce greenhouse gases. Great! So how do they do this? I hear you ask! Well, they have based it all on the Co2! Well that's great and makes sense! I hear you shout! Yes it is............... Only they have linked it to the Co2 of the car against it's vehicle weight. Now anyone in the know can see that a Small Citycar with a 1.0 Petrol Engine that puts out 115g/km of Co2 is efficient. Only once you compare it against the weight of a large SUV with a 1.6 engine and 130g/km, it is actually not viable because the SUV that weighs two tonnes, according to the idiots who produced the regulations, is more efficient than the small city car! Add in to that the fact that the City car does 65mpg and the SUV 40mpg and any idiot can see the small Citycar is hugely more efficient in terms of greenhouse gases! Nope! Not the people who made these regulations! The result of this is that nearly all car manufacturers are getting rid of their small cars. Peugeot Citroen have cancelled or will shortly be cancelling the 108 and C1, Toyota the Aygo, Kia Picanto is in Limited production only due the the large fines imposed on KIA by the EU for making too many efficient cars etc etc 

Thats what happens when you let Politicians and Climate Activists design your modes of transport. 

Anyway my point is we aren't at the point where forcing people to drive EV's will help the planet in the long run. Short term yes. We are storing up a huge toxic problem and wasting Billions on virtually one of the worst, least efficient and most expensive possible ways to power a car!!

[C8RKH]

On 25/11/2021 at 13:26, eUKenGB said:

whereas all the components of a battery can be recovered and re-cycled

Not yet they can't at the "industrial scale" that would be required. However, as technology and processes improve, probably driven by a future, increasing scarcity of the raw materials being "mined" cost effectively, then we will see it happen for sure. So we partly agree.

Also, everything that we "mine" has a finite supply. Once it has gone, it has gone. 

However, as ever, this is not the full story is it?  As I understand it, most of the current means for recycling batteries involves a very high temperature melting, extraction and smelting process. At industrial scale, these processes, that very similar to the mining/extraction/smelting of the original raw materials, are hugely energy intensive operations - just like the mining/smelting process. So, hardly an ecological process and let's not forget about the Sulphur Dioxide all of this will create and the impact that has when it falls as "Acid Rain".

Less than 2% of Li-On batteries for instance, are currently recycled, meaning that in most cases 98% of the Li-On batteries created to date, and their raw materials, have been lost to, in most cases, land fill.  Great!  However, for balance, yes, this will improve "in the future", but right now we do not have sufficient capacity to process the and recycle the Li-On batteries we have created over the past 30 years, yet alone the additional billions of batteries that will created for the mass move to EV's.  As ever, the Human Race has learnt nothing and as we race to exploit the "latest technology" our understanding of the future issues we are creating and our efforts to clean up/recycle the waste that is produced lag years, often decades, behind. At some point we may stop this frivolous cycle, but I doubt it will be in my life time. And by then, the other issue we will be dealing with is the pollution of aquifers and water courses as the many tons of Cobalt, Nickle, Manganese and other metals are, and have, leaching out of the landfill batteries from the past 30 years and those that will be still put to landfill over the next 10 years or so. So 40 years of waste to clean up!

My biggest issue with posts like yours Ken, is that they are quick to point out the issues with the current (i.e. ICE) but are then equally quick to dismiss the new issues being created as being "possible" to fix and a future "ultimate goal".

Don't anyone listen to me though, as I truly know f' all. But by all means listen to some experts here:  https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

As they eloquently point out, we may not see Li-On battery recycling ever hit industrial levels as the investment may not be made in the plants required as by then the battery compounds will have moved on to Li-Air, or something else, possibly even graphene etc. It also seems that not all batteries are created equal, and so that presents further challenges to how they are recycled and how much is recovered from them.

By all means, communicate the on-message view that fossil fuels are evil, and batteries will give us a cleaner world. Just don't expect it to turn into the Utopian reality any time soon.

Not saying we do not need to do something. Not saying that at all. But also I'm not blinded by a one size fits all solution, like many are around batteries for EV's etc.