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Is electric really the answer


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1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I know a couple of worthy households, who have boxes of recycled toilet rolls delivered to their homes. Each roll is individually wrapped in its own sheet of paper. The toilet roll paper itself is very poor quality and the perforations useless, so you end up using far more than you normally would. Added to the fact that each shipment is delivered directly to the user, I really don’t see the environmental benefit. Good news for the manufacturer though, that people like this are happy to pay over the odds for something that gets flushed down the toilet.

If people really want to be green then use a clean face towel to wipe your arse, then drop it into a bucket of water/bleach, then wash the things and reuse. Now that would be eco friendly.

The whole "eco" or "green" thing is so fooked up because it is being driven by middle class snowflakes who prefer "show" over really doing something.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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I didn't get an electric car to be green, far from it. I got it because the govt are throwing cash at them for businesses and it's not often I get something back so took advantage of their offer. I'd imagine this is pushing a huge amount of their sales at the moment rather than the green credentials. Wasn't there a study a while back that PHEV's were hardly ever, if ever, plugged in but just used as company cars as the BIK is so low?

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Yup and agreed. The Government is using "incentives" to drive outcomes that are nothing to do with being green, but are to do with being "seen" to do the right thing.

 

Edited by Bravo73

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Well said, totally agree. Another classic example of Government interference fooking up the environment!

Edited by Bravo73

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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1 hour ago, Bibs said:

Wasn't there a study a while back that PHEV's were hardly ever, if ever, plugged in but just used as company cars as the BIK is so low?

I haven’t read that but can quite believe it. I recently chose a new hybrid Passat GTE as my latest company car. This decision was 100% driven by the lower tax burden (about a third of what I was paying for its diesel predecessor). Sure it’s cheap for local trips on electric only, but that’s not why people have company cars. Over the longer distances it’s barely any more economical than an ICE only car, probably less so in real terms due to the smaller capacity engine and additional weight of the electrical gubbins it has to haul around.

On long trips, I have been driving around with the petrol engine rotating at about 2000 rpm and the battery supplementing this and being charged as it goes. I believe this gives me 218bhp if required. Otherwise you just empty the battery in the first 25 miles and rely on the little (150 bhp?) petrol engine alone for the next 300 miles or whatever your journey is that day. No thanks.

I usually top up the battery when I get home with the cable, but I can see why many don’t bother. Just let the engine do it for you!

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@LotusLeftLotusRight

Fuel card data challenges PHEV claims

Figures released by fuel monitoring specialist TMC 18 months ago had indicated that the fuel consumption of seven different makes and model of PHEV suggested the cars were typically run only on their internal combustion engines, making them among the highest emission cars on the road. Their real world performance averaged 6.3l/100km (45mpg), producing carbon dioxide emissions of 168 grammes per kilometre, compared to official figures of 2.2l/100km 9130mpg) and 55g/km.

This led to suggestions that company car drivers were choosing PHEVs to cut their benefit in kind tax bills, rather than to lower their emissions and carbon footprint.

Paul Hollick, Managing Director of TMC, said: “There is a real risk that fleet managers are adopting a PHEV strategy for completely the right reasons but unknowingly actually increasing their fuel bills, while the only beneficiary is the driver paying lower BIK on the car. PHEVs can be a cost-effective choice where drivers cover only moderate mileages; but only if the cars’ batteries are recharged daily. On the evidence of our sample, one has to question whether some PHEVs ever see a charging cable.”

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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2 hours ago, Bibs said:

Wasn't there a study a while back that PHEV's were hardly ever, if ever, plugged in but just used as company cars as the BIK is so low?

When speaking to our Land Rover dealer about an evoque p300e phev, they said that if it was never plugged in, it would invalidate their warranty??

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Watched an episode of Trucking Hell (yes I know!!) last night. They went to recover a car transporter that was carrying electric vehicles which had caught fire. They had to get one car off the transporter, turn it upside down so that the fire service could keep a hose on the batteries as they were reaching thermal runaway. They had to do this for ages. In the end the car was loaded (upside down) on a flat bed and taken to the recovery company's depot and placed in a skip full of water. For the journey they were accompanied by the fire service in case the car re-ignited.

This was all down to the lithium batteries. So one car tied up a massive amount of resources.

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4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

If people really want to be green then use a clean face towel to wipe your arse, then drop it into a bucket of water/bleach, then wash the things and reuse. Now that would be eco friendly.

Why even use a towel? Why not just use a jug of water?

Like most of the rest of the world. 
 

Anyway, we digress…

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So with all the same arguments for and against batteries being trotted out, it would appear no-one bothered to follow the link I posted to a video in which a very plausible alternative is being discussed. A way to manufacture liquid hydrocarbon fuels at lower cost than current pump prices and use them in vehicles, all in a totally carbon neutral way. So everyone who so desires can continue to use their precious ICE powered vehicles, without causing any additional pollution. A modular production method that can be scaled from as small as a single household's requirement to full on commercial fuel production - anywhere that fuel is needed.

So while those who prefer the characteristics of electric power can graduate to that, but all those who want to continue to hate on batteries can also have their way with continued, but environmentally friendly use of an ICE. Isn't this worth getting excited about - rather than simply regurgitating the same old over-discussed (and largely misguided) criticism of batteries?

I'd be interested to know how governments will figure how to tax vehicles utilising such a synthetic fuel since it is still an ICE powered vehicle with an exhaust from which carbon (oxides) will still be emitted. However, the fuel only exists due to that same carbon having been extracted from the atmosphere, so the net carbon change is ZERO. How are they going to get their heads around that.

“You can’t have too many bikes"
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4 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@LotusLeftLotusRight

Fuel card data challenges PHEV claims

Figures released by fuel monitoring specialist TMC 18 months ago had indicated that the fuel consumption of seven different makes and model of PHEV suggested the cars were typically run only on their internal combustion engines, making them among the highest emission cars on the road. Their real world performance averaged 6.3l/100km (45mpg), producing carbon dioxide emissions of 168 grammes per kilometre, compared to official figures of 2.2l/100km 9130mpg) and 55g/km.

This led to suggestions that company car drivers were choosing PHEVs to cut their benefit in kind tax bills, rather than to lower their emissions and carbon footprint.

Agree. I drive the BMW i8 (it's hybrid, not EV) like I stole it and the consumption is 31 MPG (9 l/100km). I also have Z4 2.5 I6 2003, drive it as gently as possible and get 22 MPG (13 l/100km). If I would drive the Z4 as I stole it, it would have 15 MPG. Numbers based on 2 years of data, so no seasonal/mood effect here. Hybrid is perfect for the road or hill climb race, because you never drain the battery. However, it's useless as a track car, because after the 6 laps, you only have half of the power 

Friend has an independent vehicle repair service/shop. They are reporting new type of problems... cold engines are pushed hard. Scenario is: car is driven from the apartment to the motorway in e-mode. As soon as vehicle is accelerating on a motorway, ICE engine is under load, but cold. 

Funny thing is that on most hybrids you are not able to see the temperature of an engine oil or coolant at all. Asked dealer about it, answer was that the hybrid is always ready to be driven hard. Yeah right 🤣😂

Let's leave amount of rare earth materials, or even copper that is needed for a single EV vs. ICE for some other day.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

So with all the same arguments for and against batteries being trotted out, it would appear no-one bothered to follow the link I posted to a video in which a very plausible alternative is being discussed. A way to manufacture liquid hydrocarbon fuels at lower cost than current pump prices and use them in vehicles, all in a totally carbon neutral way. So everyone who so desires can continue to use their precious ICE powered vehicles, without causing any additional pollution. A modular production method that can be scaled from as small as a single household's requirement to full on commercial fuel production - anywhere that fuel is needed.

I was arguing for hydrogen fuel cells over a year ago and just got a load of shit around you're nuts etc etc. Hey ho, I was obviously ahead of the time, again.....

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Well I still say it's not gonna happen, but we will continue to disagree on that. 😀

What I think IS an obvious avenue to explore is whether hydrocarbon fuels can be practically converted into electricity - in the vehicle. So that a car merely needs to fill up, as it does now (but with synthetic fuel - for which BTW an iCE engine needs NO adjustment) and that is then converted to electricity to power the drive motor(s). In this way we get to carry around a highly energy dense fuel source (as with current petrol) that is quick to refill, its use is overall fully carbon neutral but the advantages of an electric powertrain can be utilised. So rather like a HFCEV, but using synthetic liquid fuel instead of H2, which provides all the expected advantages of the HFCEV, but with fewer disadvantages, particularly due to the difficulty of storing H2. The new synthetic liquid fuel can use the EXACT same transportation/storage infrastructure as current fossil fuels and is as energy dense and it can be manufactured 'on-site'. None of which H2 can satisfy.

Anyone so keen on the concept of HFCEVs should be jumping for joy at this development, which is a double whammy as it also allows the continued use of ICE vehicles.

I've not yet come across any such hydrocarbon fuel cell, but I'm sure it would be possible with enough research. Either way, it would still require batteries, just like a HFCEV.

“You can’t have too many bikes"
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Wireless batteries in electric Lotus?

https://www.electricmotorengineering.com/wireless-batteries-in-electric-lotus/

says 

With the elimination of 90% of the wiring equipping the car, the design freedom would increase and, at the same time, it would be possible to reduce by 15% the physical sizes of the battery pack and consequently the overall car weight. And all this without any kind of performance loss. The system is managed by a central unit that dialogues with the various battery modules by means of a wireless system.
Benefits should be mirrored on all future electric Lotus models, probably starting from the electric Type 132 SUV whose release on the market is expected in 2022.

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Ford released some data recently on the Kuga PHEV that showed over 50% of the miles driven were on electric so it seems some PHEV drivers plug in their cars. We have one and plug ours in regularly, it has done 80% of all miles on electric so far. Best bit is we charge for free during the day from our PV's - winner winner chicken dinner

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Just depends what you use your car for. Kugas aren’t usually bought as company cars for making long journeys. If you’re pootling about locally, then sure the battery makes sense. I’ll be driving my PHEV 230 miles tomorrow. The battery can only manage 10% of that, then it’s up to good old petrol to do the rest. My long distance mileage will always be the largest proportion of my use in this car, so the fuel economy benefit will be pretty minimal.

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4 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

Wireless batteries in electric Lotus?

https://www.electricmotorengineering.com/wireless-batteries-in-electric-lotus/

says 

With the elimination of 90% of the wiring equipping the car, the design freedom would increase and, at the same time, it would be possible to reduce by 15% the physical sizes of the battery pack and consequently the overall car weight. And all this without any kind of performance loss. The system is managed by a central unit that dialogues with the various battery modules by means of a wireless system.
Benefits should be mirrored on all future electric Lotus models, probably starting from the electric Type 132 SUV whose release on the market is expected in 2022.

This is just wireless communication by the battery management system to control voltage, temperatures, etc.  Power will still run through wires, but having communication be wireless saves a surprising amount of wiring and thus weight and space.  GM was about the first group to announce using this tech.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2020/09/09/gm-to-use-first-wireless-battery-management-system-in-ultium-battery-packs/

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Significant Lithium deposits now confirmed in Cornwall and the West Country. This will be a game changer for the UK and our push to an electric economy and for our efforts to being an "ideal" location for Gigafactories.

 

And in other news....  (the truth eventually comes out!)

Volvo admits emissions from making electric cars can be 70% HIGHER than petrol models - but once they've done 70,000 miles they become greener

  • Carbon-intensive production for battery and steel makes EVs more polluting
  • It says at current global electricity mix, an EV needs to be driven almost 70k miles to offset its higher production emissions
  • This can be reduced to less than 30k miles if EVs are charged with green energy
  • It has called on world leaders to accelerate the clean energy investment
  • Swedish maker is publishing emissions transparency reports for all EVs released

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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26 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Significant Lithium deposits now confirmed in Cornwall

Cornwall probably wants independence now.

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It has done since before the wheel was invented.  Selfish buggers want to keep all the pasties for themselves.

Maybe do a deal with Scotland and say you can only have independence if you take Cornwall with you?

Edited by Bravo73

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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21 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just depends what you use your car for. Kugas aren’t usually bought as company cars for making long journeys. If you’re pootling about locally, then sure the battery makes sense. I’ll be driving my PHEV 230 miles tomorrow. The battery can only manage 10% of that, then it’s up to good old petrol to do the rest. My long distance mileage will always be the largest proportion of my use in this car, so the fuel economy benefit will be pretty minimal.

That isn't how it works on a PHEV though (or at least not for the Ford). Yes, you have a relatively short pure EV range (we get around 30 miles on the Kuga) but then it runs as a hybrid and a surprisingly large part of the journey is electric. We did 360 miles last week starting with a virtually flat HV battery and it still did over 80 electric miles in that 360 and managed just under 50mpg at 130kph adaptive cruise on the motorway. Our old diesel Kuga would not have managed that mpg. It obviously depends on the PHEV, some are much better than others.

So it is more economical than the diesel on longer journeys and free for us on short journeys.

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41 minutes ago, gregs24 said:

Yes, you have a relatively short pure EV range (we get around 30 miles on the Kuga) but then it runs as a hybrid and a surprisingly large part of the journey is electric. We did 360 miles last week starting with a virtually flat HV battery and it still did over 80 electric miles in that 360 and managed just under 50mpg at 130kph adaptive cruise on the motorway. Our old diesel Kuga would not have managed that mpg. It obviously depends on the PHEV, some are much better than others.

My wife's diseasel automatic Karoq 4x4 is regularly used to travel down to my mothers, so a 600 mile round trip and despite being 4x4 it cracks 54mpg on a steady cruise control at 75mph indicated so 120kmh indicated.  I'll stick with the diseasel to be honest.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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2 hours ago, gregs24 said:

That isn't how it works on a PHEV though (or at least not for the Ford). Yes, you have a relatively short pure EV range (we get around 30 miles on the Kuga) but then it runs as a hybrid and a surprisingly large part of the journey is electric. We did 360 miles last week starting with a virtually flat HV battery and it still did over 80 electric miles in that 360 and managed just under 50mpg at 130kph adaptive cruise on the motorway. Our old diesel Kuga would not have managed that mpg. It obviously depends on the PHEV, some are much better than others.

So it is more economical than the diesel on longer journeys and free for us on short journeys.

I’m confused, but new to PHEVs so be gentle. If you started with a virtually flat HV battery, yet managed 80 miles electric only from a total of 360 miles, then surely the petrol engine was charging the battery for you and propelling the car for the other 280 miles? When I select the battery charge mode on my Passat, it takes many miles of petrol running at 2000 rpm to even add 1 mile of battery charge. I’ve just completed a 250 mile round trip today in hybrid mode (inc. charging) and yes the engine kicks in and out almost imperceptibly, but you don’t get something for nothing do you, apart from the little bit of regen charging? The battery level gradually halved to 14 miles by the end of the journey. How many miles were actually completed electric only, I don’t know, since it would have been a combination of many short distances.

As I see it, basically you get 30 miles for *“free”* from a fully charged battery and everything else is down to the petrol engine, either charging the battery or propelling the car. I guess that there is the ongoing benefit of the relatively low rpm when the engine is running, compared to red-lining in each gear!

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