free hit
counters
Is electric really the answer - Page 33 - Lotus / Motoring / Cars Chat - The Lotus Forums - Official Lotus Community Partner Jump to content


IGNORED

Is electric really the answer


Recommended Posts

The trouble with that is the numbers. To have an equivalent to a 550 mile range in my VW (£65), it costs me £6 in electric. If tax on electricity was to be the equivalent to fuel duty/VAT (£36 of the £65 is tax), it would be 600% which is a bit strong really.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
  • Gold FFM

Don't see what the problem is. One tax falls another rises. Simple economics. Also, no doubt you got a government "INCENTIVE" to buy your new EV, whereas new non EV purchasers just get a splintered broom stick up their arses. At some point, just like with the FiT and Renewable subsidies you need to move from handing out incentives to collecting in taxes. Too much cross subsidy from non-green to "green" iniatives. Why should my taxes pay you to get an EV?  :)

 

Edited by Bravo73
  • Like 1

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

@exeterjeep, Mr. @Barrykearley is correct and they are already trialling separate tariffs for charging your EV at home that will be subject to different taxation rules to the electricity you use to power your home. The Government needs to replace the £40bn a year paid through fuel/road taxes with a similar level of income from EV's.

Am not disagreeing, there will need to be a raft of changes to how we pay for EV's and charging etc. How those without driveways or in flats etc will be able to manage.

I know the guy next door works for our power distribution company and they are working on a number of schemes, he thinks they will have 3 phase power installed to their property (may be next year) - one for the house, one for the stable block (which currently has its own supply/meter)  and one for charging his EV when it arrives. He is currently thinking of a polestar.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess we won’t need to raise as much tax for the public purse when EVs are the norm. I can envisage an idyllic Greta Britain where the air is clean, the sea keeps its distance, the weather starts behaving again, citizens live in insulated homes and autonomous vehicles transport us around safely and legally.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I guess we won’t need to raise as much tax for the public purse when EVs are the norm. I can envisage an idyllic Greta Britain where the air is clean, the sea keeps its distance, the weather starts behaving again, citizens live in insulated homes and autonomous vehicles transport us around safely and legally.

Ha Ha, get it, I think that the government will always want to raise loads of tax, after all they can easily find thousands of ways to spend (sometimes waste) our taxes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM
10 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@exeterjeep, Mr. @Barrykearley is correct and they are already trialling separate tariffs for charging your EV at home that will be subject to different taxation rules to the electricity you use to power your home. The Government needs to replace the £40bn a year paid through fuel/road taxes with a similar level of income from EV's.

And the vat on car charging was sneaked upto 20% last March - not sure I saw that in the press though. 
 

western power on some new builds in the midlands are now putting 3ph to each house. One for solar, one for the house, one for car charging. Get ready for the tax grab it’s so obvious it’s coming.
 

Anyway Peppa pig is well worth chatting about.

9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Why should my taxes pay you to get an EV?  :)

Fret not - your electric bill is subsiding my PV payments 🍻

  • Like 1

Only here once

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Bibs said:

The trouble with that is the numbers. To have an equivalent to a 550 mile range in my VW (£65), it costs me £6 in electric. If tax on electricity was to be the equivalent to fuel duty/VAT (£36 of the £65 is tax), it would be 600% which is a bit strong really.

Road Pricing will be introduced- I am convinced 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

Eventually, yes, I think you are right.

Motorways will be sold to highest bidder and ANPR used to turn them into toll roads. You see, smart motorways, it all fits....

Edited by Bravo73
  • Like 2

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

He is currently thinking of a polestar.

Spoke to him last night, well it seems he has thunk some more, it being a company car he has decided it will be too expensive on his monthly payments, so will stick with something that has a proper engine. (And he works for western power distribution )

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

Nice post @Kimbers.  Sums up where we are with these "GREEN" initiatives, which is to get the ball rolling Governments try to "incentivise" early adopters, with subsidies paid for by non "early adopters" to build a head of steam that they then use to justify subsequent legislation to force every one to adopt.

 

  • Like 2

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

How those without driveways or in flats etc will be able to manage.

In Simple terms there are already plans in place that your local Council will have to install "Residence only" charging points, maybe within the Street lighting. And then You will be both charged normal electricty and tax with a swipe card AND the local council will charge you a "permit to charge in a public place". Plus the residence owners/company can also charge a maintenance amount. HOWEVER you can run your cable from your flat, in which case you will need a license (Chargeable) AND the council will need to make sure there is no trip hazard. Take into account this is in a County (Norfolk) where there are only 144 charge points in the whole County and 44 of which are within Norwich City limits, so you are pretty stuffed if you can't charge from home! Unless you want to queue up for 3 days to join the Million other motorists waiting.

  • Like 1

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM
2 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

In Simple terms there are already plans in place that your local Council will have to install "Residence only" charging points, maybe within the Street lighting. And then You will be both charged normal electricty and tax with a swipe car AND the local council will charge you a "permit to charge in a public place". Plus the residence owners/company can also charge a maintenance amount. HOWEVER you can run your cable from your flat, in which case you will need a license (Chargeable) AND the council will need to make sure there is no trip hazard. Take into account this is in a County where there are only 144 charge points in the whole County and 44 of which are within Norwich City limits

As I have said over and over again, based on current UK infrastructure Electric Vehicles make the most sense for the middle class - well paid so they can "afford" the higher lease costs (as they don't buy these things) and with a 99.9% certainty that they have a drive/courtyard/garage to host their own charging point.

God help the significant portion of the population that live in these type of places, as you describe @Kimbers they are going to have a splintered broom stick shoved up their arse! Oh and as per the pictures below, you will note the council will need to install the lamp posts before they can use them as EV charging posts etc.....

A lot of people are simply dismissing these points as "naysayers who are seeking the negatives" - I would say it is realists saying to the fan boys "stop smoking dope!"

image.jpeg.c1c631bdb587a5e39ffecbae786b86e6.jpeg

Council explore road restrictions in Boxmoor to solve parking problem |  Hemel Today

  • Like 2

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

WOW! Didn’t realise the electric revolution was that bad! Yes, a lot of emphasis on Tesla but, are the others any better?

Batteries are a nightmare to produce with regards to raw materials. Why is the future so blinkered towards electric?

  • Like 1

It’s only metal, it cannot win!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM

Rather than mine coal and exploit crude oil, as a species we are now going to deplete the earth of finite minerals in order to satisfy a certain warming agenda. I don’t think this is the best answer but then again would the inherent dangers with hydrogen cells work either?

The carburettor would have been a lot more efficient if the fuel giants hadn’t bought the rights too them in order to prevent evolution of the product.

  • Like 1

It’s only metal, it cannot win!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, C8RKH said:

As I have said over and over again, based on current UK infrastructure Electric Vehicles make the most sense for the middle class - well paid so they can "afford" the higher lease costs (as they don't buy these things) and with a 99.9% certainty that they have a drive/courtyard/garage to host their own charging point.

God help the significant portion of the population that live in these type of places, as you describe @Kimbers they are going to have a splintered broom stick shoved up their arse! Oh and as per the pictures below, you will note the council will need to install the lamp posts before they can use them as EV charging posts etc.....

A lot of people are simply dismissing these points as "naysayers who are seeking the negatives" - I would say it is realists saying to the fan boys "stop smoking dope!"

image.jpeg.c1c631bdb587a5e39ffecbae786b86e6.jpeg

Council explore road restrictions in Boxmoor to solve parking problem |  Hemel Today

I cannot articulate how furious I am with the current direction of travel.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Gjk said:

Rather than mine coal and exploit crude oil, as a species we are now going to deplete the earth of finite minerals in order to satisfy a certain warming agenda. I don’t think this is the best answer but then again would the inherent dangers with hydrogen cells work either?

The big point being missed is that coal and other fossil fuels are finite and non-recoverable, whereas all the components of a battery can be recovered and re-cycled. So once enough batteries have been made, all new ones can be manufactured purely from what is re-cycled from old batteries. The raw materials in a battery are NEVER used up. At the end of a battery's life, they're all still there.

Not saying it's simple or that it is happening right now, BUT it is possible and is the ultimate goal, whereas burning fossil fuels will always be one way only. All the arguments against battery manufacture seem to conveniently ignore this one simple, but rather significant fact.

  • Like 2
“You can’t have too many bikes"
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24/11/2021 at 09:02, exeterjeep said:

Spoke to him last night, well it seems he has thunk some more, it being a company car he has decided it will be too expensive on his monthly payments, so will stick with something that has a proper engine. (And he works for western power distribution )

Does he know about salary sacrifice to pay the lease costs on an EV - I'm sure that will make a big difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Gold FFM
On 25/11/2021 at 13:26, eUKenGB said:

whereas all the components of a battery can be recovered and re-cycled

Not yet they can't at the "industrial scale" that would be required. However, as technology and processes improve, probably driven by a future, increasing scarcity of the raw materials being "mined" cost effectively, then we will see it happen for sure. So we partly agree.

Also, everything that we "mine" has a finite supply. Once it has gone, it has gone. 

However, as ever, this is not the full story is it?  As I understand it, most of the current means for recycling batteries involves a very high temperature melting, extraction and smelting process. At industrial scale, these processes, that very similar to the mining/extraction/smelting of the original raw materials, are hugely energy intensive operations - just like the mining/smelting process. So, hardly an ecological process and let's not forget about the Sulphur Dioxide all of this will create and the impact that has when it falls as "Acid Rain".

Less than 2% of Li-On batteries for instance, are currently recycled, meaning that in most cases 98% of the Li-On batteries created to date, and their raw materials, have been lost to, in most cases, land fill.  Great!  However, for balance, yes, this will improve "in the future", but right now we do not have sufficient capacity to process the and recycle the Li-On batteries we have created over the past 30 years, yet alone the additional billions of batteries that will created for the mass move to EV's.  As ever, the Human Race has learnt nothing and as we race to exploit the "latest technology" our understanding of the future issues we are creating and our efforts to clean up/recycle the waste that is produced lag years, often decades, behind. At some point we may stop this frivolous cycle, but I doubt it will be in my life time. And by then, the other issue we will be dealing with is the pollution of aquifers and water courses as the many tons of Cobalt, Nickle, Manganese and other metals are, and have, leaching out of the landfill batteries from the past 30 years and those that will be still put to landfill over the next 10 years or so. So 40 years of waste to clean up!

My biggest issue with posts like yours Ken, is that they are quick to point out the issues with the current (i.e. ICE) but are then equally quick to dismiss the new issues being created as being "possible" to fix and a future "ultimate goal".

Don't anyone listen to me though, as I truly know f' all. But by all means listen to some experts here:  https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

As they eloquently point out, we may not see Li-On battery recycling ever hit industrial levels as the investment may not be made in the plants required as by then the battery compounds will have moved on to Li-Air, or something else, possibly even graphene etc. It also seems that not all batteries are created equal, and so that presents further challenges to how they are recycled and how much is recovered from them.

By all means, communicate the on-message view that fossil fuels are evil, and batteries will give us a cleaner world. Just don't expect it to turn into the Utopian reality any time soon.

Not saying we do not need to do something. Not saying that at all. But also I'm not blinded by a one size fits all solution, like many are around batteries for EV's etc.

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to enhance your browsing experience, serve personalized ads or content, and analyze our traffic. By clicking " I Accept ", you consent to our use of cookies. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.