Is electric really the answer

[Frickin_idiot]

On 20/09/2022 at 20:30, exeterjeep said:

MG4 being announced, made and delivered in reasonable volumes with a more potent one to come, and low priced...

High-performance MG 4 EV to launch in 2023 with 443bhp

Twin-motor, AWD with 330kW of power
► Targets a 4.0sec 0-62mph time
► Here in 2023, priced around £35,000

The Chinese SAIC/MG production getting ramped up at pace. Compared to some other companies. If this car is reliable then it will make an inroad into the UK registrations quickly.

 

 

My Mrs has an MG3, when it has its MOT at four years old we were advised to get shot before its fifth birthday as the front chassis was rotting out. Buyer beware, we won’t be buying another one.

[exeterjeep]

In the pressure to reduce the cost of EV's (and all others to be fair) I am sure that they reduce the protection of loads of parts on the car.  This covers loads of makes of cars, with the 7 year warranty looks like that at the end of 7 years just throw the car away and get another.... Like we do for loads of consumer products.  This can't be best for the planet though. Some early Jaguar S / X types rusted early on as well.

So you wont be spending loads of cash converting your MG 3 to electric..

[Bibs]

Had a few emails from the networks I'm registered with detailing price increases up to 75p-99p / kwh. That would make my car cost between £45 and £60 to fill up for 282 miles of range, giving about half the equivalent MPG of my VW diesel. I'm paying 7p / kwh overnight so that's over 10 to nearly 15 times the price of home charging, same as charging around £17-22 for a litre of fuel

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Yes this could be a tipping point for EVs. The one thing they’ve got going for them for private owners is the very low “refuelling” cost and equivalent MPG. If that’s wiped out, then how many private individuals are going to pay more than the ICE or hybrid equivalent? No doubt the 2% Benefit in Kind rate for full electric company cars will also start going up from 2025, if not sooner if the Treasury is scrabbling for cash.

Of course it’s all avoidable. Governments should just set a maximum unit price for gas and electricity as a term of any energy producer’s operating licence. If any of these suppliers don’t like it, then they can just close their doors and let a competitor step in. I don’t really understand why the world is making this so hard for itself and letting the energy companies rip us all off.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Just seen on PH that Porsche has completed its 100,000th Taycan after only 3 years of COVID and supply-blighted production. I have to say that they seem to be everywhere in this country: apparently only the US and China buy more of these than we do.

[pete]

[pete]

https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/12/02/switzerland-plans-to-ban-electric-cars-from-its-roads/.       Could this be the future. 

[Bravo73]

14 minutes ago, pete said:

Could this be the future. 

The original source article was from the Daily hateMail. So, you decide if this ‘could be the future’…? 😬

[C8RKH]

I said 2 years ago plus on here that the problem is infrastructure.

A couple of idjeets on here just couldn't get it, or didn't want to hear it. Narrow minded shiny shiny fookwits to be honest.

 

2 years on the issues re infrastructure are surprise, surprise, surfacing.  Stories about broken chargers. Growing queues at chargers. People pissed off at the whole customer experience etc etc 

Now we're seeing the issues re generation and grid capacity.

I'm gonna say it, but I told you so 

This is not a rant against EVs. They're happening. But it is a rant at the numbfooks who are surprised these issues are occuring.

Switzerland is a blip due to local and geo factors. But until we start to look at EVs as a holistic, whole, programme stuff like this going to happen elsewhere.

10 years ago the rapid rollout of PV, without the holistic view saw people "paying" to put the leccy there were producing to the grid as the demand was not there. Another example of why we need a proper strategy and approach to these things.

[pete]

If you for some reason you don't trust the mail how about https://e-vehicleinfo.com/switzerland-can-ban-evs-due-to-energy-shortage/

[Elite 4.9]

There are at least 2 reasons that electric won't make it as the main source of power without some major inventions to improve areas that simply are not there yet.

One is that, here in the US, and already mentioned, is the electric grid simply can't handle it and is already in trouble. Two most never think about this one and I know I am late to the party here on electric vehicles, but there are electric fields generated around any such devices and no mention of any safety protection are even studies  have been mentioned to protect the occupants in the vehicle.

Another reason this is not a good idea, IMHO, is that these are the dirtiest of all vehicles on the road. For instance, a brand new toyota prius has already polluted , @ zero miles on the od, 80,000 miles of equivalent pollution because of the added battery construction. This is true on any and all cars and trucks with internal combustion engines.

I am sure, given enough time, there will be devices, in the future, that one can charge his own vehicle at home  or maybe anywhere, without a hookup to the electrical grid and that batteries will continue to advance and become more efficient down the road. And I would bet that there are already such devices, in the works, being built by inventors.

Back in, I think it was 2012, the total world knowledge was doubling every 72 hours and will continue for the next 30 years at that rate which is an exponentially increase.

I for one don't ever plan on an electric car or truck in my possession. Same reason I don't follow Formula E.

And I have been following F1 since the early days of Jimmy Clark back in the early 1960's. This was the reason I became a Lotus lover in the first place along with Ford entering the picture to power Lotus both in Indy car racing as well as funding Cosworth who probably would have never become prominent on their own without some large company funding them.

just my two cents.

cheers,

Richard

[Bibs]

My EV is going back at the end of January and I need to make a decision on what's next. 

It's been super economical with the tax breaks and cheap electric but some of that isn't so appealing nowadays. Over 2 years, having a £40k car in the drive has cost less than £100/month once all the savings are factored in and I've been saving the planet (don't start!)

What's next? Another EV, Hybrid, stick with the 65-70mpg oil burner Scirocco? I've kept this as it's cost me very little to have over the last couple of years and been a handy spare car.

My experience has been good with the EV - I can charge at home in the drive and have used public chargers which aren't too much hassle but do take time, can be a pain to find and need many, many apps. They're getting very pricey now, peaking at £1/kwh but back to 70p, although that's still over £40 to fill up the car from empty (from a £64 peak for 280 miles!) but home charging overnight on Octopus is £4 a fill up. 

[MPx]

3 hours ago, Bibs said:

I can charge at home in the drive ... 

I reckon its this in a nutshell.  If your facilities and usage mean that you can charge at home then a leccy car is all good.  However that also means you need another car for long journeys - but if you have one, jobs a good'n.

[pete]

Interesting article about the future problems with electric vehicles in multistorey car parks and bridges. Local authorities are being advised to have surveys carried out out on all such buildings by structural engineers.                                          https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11550269/Weight-electric-vehicles-cause-catastrophic-damage-lead-car-parks-collapsing.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

[Bravo73]

49 minutes ago, pete said:

                                  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/

Oh, please. What carp. 
 

“Electric cars, which are roughly twice as heavy as standard models,…”

“For instance, the best-selling Tesla Model 3 weighs 2.2 tons fully loaded, making it more than 50 per cent heavier than a 1.4-tonne Cortina.”

A Cortina???!? Yep, because the UK’s multi-storey car parks are chock full of Cortinas. 🤦‍♂️

[C8RKH]

Calm down @Bravo73, bear in mind that a significant number of multi-story car parks were built in the 60's and 70's when cars were significantly smaller and lighter than the average car today and the fully loaded Cortina (960kg for a MkIII - that's Elise weight now isn't it?) was one of the common saloon cars at the time. Maybe, just maybe, the journo used the "Cortina" as he actually had done research from the time when a lot of the MS car parks were created?

[Rambo]

A well reasoned reply 👍

PS @Daily Mail and Bravo - since when was a Cortina anywhere near 1.4T? I'm sure the early ones were more like 0.8T ???

[Geoffers]

Cortina Mk3, 960kg dry weight (also seen 990kg quoted) plus 4 average size adults at say 75kg each plus full tank of fuel & a boot full of shopping, not far off 1.4T.

[C8RKH]

The only thing you need to not add to the Tesla is the tank of fuel, so its weight goes up too by the 4 poeple and shopping, so unsure what point you are making really, or don't people go out hopping together in a Tesla as all they need is home delivered by Waitrose?

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Bravo73

[Geoffers]

Just pointing out a Cortina can weigh 1.4T. Indeed the weight of the Tesla can increase too when fully loaded.

[electro_boy]

10 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

The only thing you need to not add to the Tesla is the tank of fuel ... 

Surely you need to add the extra weight of the electrons when the battery is fully charged! 😄

 

Joking aside these days EV cars are not really much heavier than your average car.  I think a mid range saloon car weighs somewhere in the range of ~1700-2000kg and a similar EV car would be around the same sort of ball park maybe +100kg.

So really the article should be comparing modern cars vs old cars and if our infrastructure is build to withstand the weight of modern cars not just EV.  Another sensationalist headline from the Daily Fail ... but then you wouldn't click the link 😉 

[ChrisJ]

Kia Niro - all three types of power unit

Full Electric	1682-1739 kg
Plug-in Hybrid	1519-1610 kg
Hybrid	1399-1490 kg

So a ~250 kg weight difference.

[pete]

And the hummer 4000kg plus😫

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, electro_boy said:

Joking aside these days EV cars are not really much heavier than your average car

Typically EV cars can be up to 35% heavier that ICE.

[yeller77]

Quote

 

Kia Niro - all three types of power unit

Full Electric	1682-1739 kg
Plug-in Hybrid	1519-1610 kg
Hybrid	1399-1490 kg

So a ~250 kg weight difference.

 

Or, for another data point, compared to the ICE-equipped Kia Seltos, which is comparable in size to the Niro and comes in about the same weight as the basic hybrid.

I'm no fan of journos but the fact that ISE are looking into the issue of design standards and structural designs from a time when all vehicles have increased in weight from 10-50%, whatever the cause, seems not only justified but responsible. Multiplying that 10-50% from the design standard by 50, 100, or more vehicles per floor of a 30 year old structure does not seem insignificant. Now, the current BMW 3 series weighs about as much as the full EV Kia Niro (ironically named phonetically similar to one odious Roman emperor) but the article probably wouldn't get as many clicks as an article heralding structural collapses due to the influx of BMW 3 series. Though, were it the case, maybe it should. In the thread at hand, though, people love to talk about the infrastructure in terms of the power grid but it's vastly more complicated as highlighted by this one of many issues. TBH, (usually the start of a rant where I make up for the lack of posting in the previous 40 pages) the EV and "green" energy movement, on personal and governmental levels, is becoming a very elitist, city-centric, and real estate-centric one. One is expected to 1) afford a new vehicle (the old one will need to be "disposed of) and 2) have the space to park it and 3) install or have access to a charging station at their location. The fact that there are millions unable to do so is beside the point, perhaps they shouldn't own a vehicle and should take "green" public transportation like the other peasants. Don't play if you can't pay. Wind farms, solar arrays, and lithium pools are already taking up massive amounts of real estate and are all well and good as long the environmental impact is in someone else's back yard. The billions of ppl in and out of the G20 (look at the list of members and imagine the micro and macro factions of their economies then tell me they can come to meaningful and binding policies) who still cook with open flames and ride 2 stroke scooters to survive are on their own as long as we can charge our EVs at the market. But then, how dare they cook with fire and use emission laden transportation, don't they know what impact their having? First World supremacy is alive and well. Oh wait, the First World is going to pay the Third World (or is it the Second World) for their natural disasters that were caused by the development of the First World which has allowed, among other things, every man, woman, and child to have a phone in their hand as a personal right, so it's all good! Evolutionary change is always more sustainable than government mandated changes which invariably are unachievable in their scope and will be met by readjustments as unmet goals get closer. If a technology is economically viable and adaptable, it will win. More widespread adoption of PHEVs that have meaningful electric range, not the usual hybrid range that barely gets you out of the neighborhood, would be a more reasoned approach to allow all aspects of change to happen. People have had access to Priuses for what 25 years and, other than the opportunity to have obnoxious personal plates like "sipngas," it has had little impact on the problem at large simply because fuel has been "cheap" and, unless you're only driving 5 miles a day with two of those on battery, there have been many other competing compact vehicles out there with as good or better fuel economy (especially that now-demon diesel). Compared to decades ago, virtually all ICE vehicles are ULEVs. Other than providing the economic boon of a catalytic converter for thieves to steal, this has apparently had little meaningful impact on global emissions. Or, maybe personal vehicles are not the biggest problem, but industries or other global economies that are too big or insulated to mandate against. Maybe all vehicles will be EV in 50 years, maybe not. Maybe Greta will be able to retire on all those who subsidized her, maybe not. The one constant in this world is change. The one constant in the current human condition is the thinking that the world shouldn't change, it is all our fault if it does, and we are all-powerful in fixing it (and can come together in doing so). 

Which gets back to the problem at hand: if they can't be herded to charger-laden parking structures that can support them and don't have a garage for the same, what are all these people supposed to do in an EV mandated world? The challenge is to try not to sound elitist or governmentally dictatorial in an answer. Go.

See you in 40 pages. On a positive note, at least I hear fusion energy is on the horizon.