Brexit

[Dan E 1,582]

1 hour ago, Barrykearley said:

Seems you may be overlooking a “brexit Party” option. This would completely muller both Tory and Labour 

And then chap where would we be. I am genuinely worried about Corbyn and I promise you this is not going to be good for you or me. 

[JG220 273]

3 hours ago, PaulCP said:

Looks as though we are facing a GE.

If this is the case the first thing that should happen is that every current MP should be fired by their constituents & replaced since they have demonstrated complete ineptitude during the Brexit process. Corbyn will get his wish (the GE) but should not be allowed to be around to win any GE since his approach all along has been just to try to kybosh any Tory deal, because that’s what he does best, react against the establishment of the day. (With SNP not far behind)

We won’t even go down the thought process of whether his past should allow him to stand for Parliament let alone PM

Really though, May failed. That then made Parliament look to fail, when there could be no consensus, since no consensus had been sought. 

It's all May's and her party's fault. And there is a question over whether conservatives should ever be trusted again. On the other hand a Corbyn administration is a very scary prospect. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by JG220

[Colin P 678]

It is not right to Simply blame May because she couldn’t secure a deal despite all the other deals being suggested also were voted against. She couldn’t deliver the impossible.

She pushed her preference, everyone else pushed theirs. No one willing to compromise and Corbyn being a complete twat throughout.

The whole bloody lot of them are equally at fault, for not being prepared to put aside own self interest and compromise to find the least disagreeable result for the country.

Frankly whatever happened 2/3rds of the population won’t be happy with the result. So broadly 3 camps. Hard Brexit. Softer Brexit and Remain, you’ll therefore never get complete consensus. 

Regardless, if we end up with Corbyn we’re all screwed and I agree with @Dan E this would the the absolute worst result. 

[Barrykearley 6,973]

1 hour ago, Dan E said:

And then chap where would we be. I am genuinely worried about Corbyn and I promise you this is not going to be good for you or me. 

He’s unelectable - he is a massive hypocrite and everyone knows this. There will be a party come from the ashes which will promise a hard brexit. That I would suspect would absolutely collapse the vote count for the major parties.

back to basics - we voted leave - deal was never on offer and let’s jot forget by voting this way we were promised higher interest rates, a huge recession, mass unemployment and plagues of locusts.

even if comrade Corbyn got in - frankly it’ll be just fine. I’ll sit back and restructure my life and business to suit

[Dan E 1,582]

7 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

 

even if comrade Corbyn got in - frankly it’ll be just fine. I’ll sit back and restructure my life and business to suit

How much of your electrical work is in Europe mine is 50%

[Colin P 678]

17 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

back to basics - we voted leave - deal was never on offer

Part of the problem. It was leave or stay. Stay was defined, leave wasn’t, so no-one really knew what the result would be if voting leave. Hard or soft? Made it very difficult for people in the middle (like myself) to decide which way to vote.

 

[Barrykearley 6,973]

The government propaganda leaflet delivered to every household in the uk was pretty clear on the issue.

what we currently have is hundreds of MPs spinning this scenario to meet their own ends. They are not considering the answer to the clear question based on that brochure which pleaded with us to vote remain.

 

19 minutes ago, Dan E said:

How much of your electrical work is in Europe mine is 50%

100% of it

[Steve V8 1,311]

1 hour ago, Dan E said:

How much of your electrical work is in Europe mine is 50%

Swanning off to Amsterdam for the weekend isn't electrical work😉.

[CHANGES 1,224]

10 hours ago, Colin P said:

Part of the problem. It was leave or stay. Stay was defined, leave wasn’t, so no-one really knew what the result would be if voting leave. Hard or soft? Made it very difficult for people in the middle (like myself) to decide which way to vote.

 

Sorry the definition of leave is 

leave

1. 1.

   go away from.

   synonyms:

   depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate; More       When i voted leave, That is what i voted for..   So to say no one knew what the result would be by voting leave is wrong.   Saying the outcome of leave was an unknown would  have been more apt.  But most people who voted leave were very passionate about what they were voting for ,' getting out from under the EU rule' .  It would be correct to say the outcome would require transition period into a new beginning,  but more of the same EU degradation  in to a federal state of Europe  was not democratic or acceptable.  So we voted out REGARDLESS..  It is very easy to blame May and the Government for the way it has all been handled,  but i find it very strange that no one looks to blame the EU negotiators for their part in this mess.   I did not see them trying to negotiate at all ....  They came up with a deal to suit them and that was it.. Where this goverment went wrong is to keep pushing the EU deal agenda as its own.. When it was not excepted by parliament that should have been the end of that one ..  As the EU said this is the only deal on the table, then its a no brainer,,  NO DEAL...    If the EU is not prepared to negotiate then why should we..  The outcome of  all this political arguing has achieved nothing but to undermine the British goverment, politics and reputation,  an outcome The EU must be so pleased about..  It has been very evident from day one of the leave vote that a very influential sector of the UK society wanted to stay in the EU because it suited then..  They have used this influence and position to do everything possible to undermine the result, discredit it , in an attempt to try and overturn by what ever means possible.  Our democratic system is what is stopping them as we voted out..  Fortunately their are some in parliament who recognise they are there to serve the people not their own agenda , the result is the in fighting political  mess we have..  Unless the EU come up with a better deal that parliament can except, then I feel we have no other option than to leave with no deal.  Any other deal we put forward the EU instantly rejects saying they have the one deal only .   As I see it we need to and should have many months ago, said to the EU , your deal is not acceptable to us , come up with something more compliant or we could end up with a No Deal. .....    All a bit late now ...

[Colin P 678]

7 minutes ago, CHANGES said:

Sorry the definition of leave is 

leave

1. 1.

   go away from.

   synonyms:

   depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate; More       When i voted leave, That is what i voted for..   So to say no one knew what the result would be by voting leave is wrong.   Saying the outcome of leave was an unknown would  have been more apt.  But most people who voted leave were very passionate about what they were voting for ,' getting out from under the EU rule' .  It would be correct to say the outcome would require transition period into a new beginning,  but more of the same EU degradation  in to a federal state of Europe  was not democratic or acceptable.  So we voted out REGARDLESS..

I am aware of the dictionary definition of leave, accept that unknown may be more apt than undefined. You have described the 2 extremes on here, and I think made my point that there is a large proportion who had to choose between 2 extremes. So will have gone one way or another, or not voted as each were equally distasteful. 

So please don’t assume that every leave voter is at the extreme end. If everyone was in one of the extreme camps then we’d have made a decision. Because there are broadly 3 camps we can’t get to 50%+ agreement.

Europe don’t want us to leave, so they were never going to make it easy. 

[Barrykearley 6,973]

We triggered article 50 - and in uk law the end date that was passed by our law makers was 29/03/19.

now its been extended - as our laws are overruled by the EU. 

 

THAT single fact is enough for me to vote leave no matter what

[CHANGES 1,224]

19 minutes ago, Colin P said:

So please don’t assume that every leave voter is at the extreme end. If everyone was in one of the extreme camps then we’d have made a decision. Because there are broadly 3 camps we can’t get to 50%+ agreement.

Never did assume that,  But if you voted leave then you would be under no misapprehension you were voting to leave and visa versa , how strong your feeling are on the matter is irrelevant, you vote one way or the other ....    Not sure I understand what the third camp is you refer to ,,  Stay... Leave.... ???? 

 

[oilmagnet477 747]

How to define 'Leave' 😋

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hloWmE_3d2I

[CHANGES 1,224]

19 minutes ago, Colin P said:

Europe don’t want us to leave, so they were never going to make it easy. 

Well maybe they should have considered how public opinion was, then made it more attractive or us to stay..   But I suppose none elected leaders  do not care about public opinion because they can not be voted out...       So it must have really piss them off when one of their major financial contributors decided to leave , because of a public democratic vote..  

[oilmagnet477 747]

Cameron went to the EU in advance of the vote to seek changes. The fact that they sent him away with a flea in his ear was what largely led to the referendum.

The leaders of the EU are a bunch of self interested bastards who are out to look after the club and its rules and not worry about the needs of its members.

That is reason enough toleave IMO

[ChrisJ 1,489]

 

[Andyww 1,289]

58 minutes ago, CHANGES said:

Well maybe they should have considered how public opinion was, then made it more attractive or us to stay..   

Its actually worse than this. Juncker knew since his appointment that the UK was against further integration and federalism but continually advocated these at every opportunity just to taunt the UK.

 

[Colin P 678]

3 hours ago, CHANGES said:

 ,,  Stay... Leave.... ???? 

 

If you don’t get what I’ve said you never will, so not even going to try. 

The world isn’t black and white. 

[CHANGES 1,224]

2 hours ago, Colin P said:

If you don’t get what I’ve said you never will, so not even going to try. 

The world isn’t black and white. 

Please enlighten me Colin ....  You imply there are three camps in the voting ..  I understand the leave vote, I understand the stay vote,  but what is the other camp ,  I bow to your superior intellect, please explain.. as i did not see a third option on the ballot paper.. 

[Colin P 678]

I didn’t say there were 3 camps in the referendum. I said there are 3 camps in how to go forward. In fact there are many on a scale. 

So the options are many but clearly you want to leave regardless of the consequences. Obviously there are those that want to remain. 

Some may want to leave, but would rather remain than leave in the manner which has been left as the option. A hard brexit with nothing in place. 

By the way it is possible to put a point accross without being condescending or sarcastic try it. 

[CHANGES 1,224]

7 hours ago, Colin P said:

So please don’t assume that every leave voter is at the extreme end. If everyone was in one of the extreme camps then we’d have made a decision. Because there are broadly 3 camps we can’t get to 50%+ agreement.

 

15 minutes ago, Colin P said:

I didn’t say there were 3 camps in the referendum. I said there are 3 camps in how to go forward. In fact there are many on a scale. 

Still confused....  is that 3 camps on how to leave the EU or 1 to leave and 2 or how you put it now many on how to screw it up..   But it is still about leaving the EU is it not..  

19 minutes ago, Colin P said:

So the options are many but clearly you want to leave regardless of the consequences. Obviously there are those that want to remain. 

Now perplexed.....  You seem to think remaining is still an option , we voted democratically to leave .    

26 minutes ago, Colin P said:

Some may want to leave, but would rather remain than leave in the manner which has been left as the option. A hard brexit with nothing in place. 

You been watching too much of the bias media (BBC etc) that is spewing out that sort of crap for months...  But it still makes no difference the vote was to leave, there was no option on the ballet paper saying,  ' leave the EU but stay in if it gets difficult to agree terms' ..   its up to the politicians to sort out how..  and yes they are making a mess of it.. 

33 minutes ago, Colin P said:

By the way it is possible to put a point accross without being condescending or sarcastic try it.

 

4 hours ago, Colin P said:

7 hours ago, CHANGES said:

 ,,  Stay... Leave.... ???? 

 

If you don’t get what I’ve said you never will, so not even going to try. 

The world isn’t black and white. 

I agree..    it is not intentional,  it is just how you interpret what is written.. .       

  

[Barrykearley 6,973]

Often I think this issue is being deliberately made far more complex than it really is.

the basics of democracy is we vote and crack on based on the majority. Be it good bad or indifferent.

what we have is the bbc and media outlets being mischievous whilst being funded by the EU whom are basically smashing a hornets nest with a shitty stick and a big smile. All of whom are working and smearing democracy in their own unique style to point out we are all ignorant and stupid. 

Well that’s just fine - now get on and implement what the democratic process outlined in that £9M mailshot

 

[Colin P 678]

@CHANGES

Please run back through my posts. I believe you have misunderstood or misinterpreted some of them.

"Still confused....  is that 3 camps on how to leave the EU or 1 to leave and 2 or how you put it now many on how to screw it up..   But it is still about leaving the EU is it not.."

You will see in previous posts that I have said that the referendum said leave, so we should leave. I have not said that leaving constitutes "screwing it up", although personally I do think that the hardest of Brexits is not a desirable route and is one I'd wish to avoid. The prime minister put forward her proposal on how to do this (which was tantamount to not leaving and possibly even worse) and this was rejected. There are many other proposals that were put forward on how to leave and each of these was also voted down in turn (including leave without a deal). Each of these is a school of thought as to how leaving should be achieved and therefore represents a "camp" as to opinion on how to progress. You only seem to be interested in one outcome, which is the extreme end of a hard Brexit and only recognise remain to be an alternative. At least that is how I read it. You are entitled to that view and I respect it, although I don't agree with it.

"But it still makes no difference the vote was to leave, there was no option on the ballet paper saying,  ' leave the EU but stay in if it gets difficult to agree terms'"

Absolutely agree, that is what the ballot said and if you look back on my posts you will see that I have passed comment on this polorisation of the question. The issue is that terms have not even been attempted as only the softest of Brexits has been pursued. This leaves the defaults as "No Deal" and "withdraw article 50". Problem is we've never even attempted a "we are leaving we are not interested in compromise agreements, now lets actually put some things in place in readyness for that".  This is in effect a no deal, but getting our future house in order before it actually happens, not afterwards. Our difference of opinion therefore is largely about timing.

You been watching too much of the bias media (BBC etc) that is spewing out that sort of crap for months

No, I don't watch the BBC news. I am quite capable of making my own mind up. Just because you disagree with my comment doesn't make it automatically crap. It is an opinion - just not yours. In fact, as it is my opinion the statement I made, being that some people may have that opinion, in itself proves the point to be fact, as I am "someone" and I do have that opinion. It may be a crap opinion, or you may view it as a crap opinion, but the statement in nonetheless not "crap" because it is true.

its up to the politicians to sort out how..  and yes they are making a mess of it.. 

Something we agree on completely

I agree..    it is not intentional,  it is just how you interpret what is written

I will give you that one. It was after your second and before your third.

For the record, and I've not posted this before, although it may be able to be worked out. I believe that we should leave. I agree that not leaving is anti democratic. I do not however want to leave with nothing in place as I think this is the worst position (only made worse if it happens AND Corbyn gets in). I would rather remain than do so, but I don't believe we need to. I hope you can also respect that as my opinion. I do believe that if we could get our politicians to actually come up with a proposal about how to leave (and not just in name) then the EU would agree to a timeframe to work through at least the basics outlines of our future relationship with them. I believe that should be along the lines of - "we will be leaving with no deal, it is in both of our interests to agree a period during which we can negotiate the core necessities of our future relationship on that basis". (This is in a previous post on page 103)

So an analogy.

As a car club we voted on whether we would attend a car show. It was a Yes or No. There was no "only if it isn't raining option". If we go, all members are obliged to attend and drive in convoy.

The vote is "Yes". It is therefore right that we all go along.

We are driving down and we come to a ford. The river is swollen and we don't know how deep the water is. I think its 2 feet, you think it's 6 inches.

We are discussing whether we drive into the ford, or we abandon the car show and return home. You are all for ploughing in because missing the show and going home isn't an option. 

I believe that there is a bridge down the road. It is a toll bridge and a bloody expensive one at that. It also has a troll living under it who we will have to take out for several expensive dinners and "make nice" with. Even if we do manage to cross the bridge the detour and dining means we will be late, our pockets considerably lighter and the Ferraris may well have left by the time we get there. Potentially we'll only be able to look at a 1970 Morris Marina in nappypoo brown with orange seats.

I don't want to return home either, but I'd rather like to try the bridge. But I am struggling to convince you that there may even be one.

I'm going to end it there, because I have little doubt that this will now be tedious to other members. Appreciating it would be unfair otherwise, if you'd like the last word then be my guest. 

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2 hours ago, Colin P said:

You only seem to be interested in one outcome, which is the extreme end of a hard Brexit and only recognise remain to be an alternative. At least that is how I read it.

Not strictly correct.  I would prefer a deal that smooths the transition , but not at the cost of getting tied to EU rules indefinitely,  without a say. ,    I believe that No Deal is better than a bad deal.  

2 hours ago, Colin P said:

I believe that we should leave. I agree that not leaving is anti democratic. I do not however want to leave with nothing in place as I think this is the worst position . I would rather remain than do so,

We are on the same page up to the point of staying in rather than leave without a deal..  My argument is remaining under any circumstances should not an option..  its undemocratic. 

2 hours ago, Colin P said:

I hope you can also respect that as my opinion. I do believe that if we could get our politicians to actually come up with a proposal about how to leave (and not just in name) then the EU would agree to a timeframe to work through at least the basics outlines of our future relationship with them. I believe that should be along the lines of - "we will be leaving with no deal, it is in both of our interests to agree a period during which we can negotiate

I respect what you say and agree in principal . However the point i was trying to make was the EU is not interested in any proposals our politicians make , they came up with a deal which Parliament  has not accepted and wont budge which is the impasse.  they are playing hard ball to get what they want . 

 I believe that should be along the lines of - "we will be leaving with no deal, it is in both of our interests to agree a period during which we can negotiate

Was that not article 50..  and what they have all tried for the last two years.. 

3 hours ago, Colin P said:

'm going to end it there, because I have little doubt that this will now be tedious to other members. Appreciating it would be unfair otherwise, if you'd like the last word then be my guest. 

I tend to agree,  I have enjoyed the banter and believe our interests are the same ..  its only the staying in bit if we can not get a deal that i disagree strongly about..    Its not about having the last word as I feel the politicians and the EU will have that ,  Thank you for your frank and informative exchanges. 

[PaulCP 690]

Interesting and spot on, albeit 12 months old

https://www.facebook.com/100009667120204/posts/893619234303639?sfns=mo

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/922497/Bundestag-Angela-Merkel-Alice-Weidel-Brexit-Britain-sovereignty