Brexit

[C8RKH 6,778]

3 hours ago, gregs24 said:

If you had read my post, I specifically said that there were similarly unhelpful terms used to describe brexiteers. Competing as to who used the worst terms is ludicrous. 

I had read your post and I actually agreed with a lot of it. The bit I took exception too was your point about the particular term you referenced being deeply insensitive given the terms used against leavers. I struggled to see that point and still do.

The main issue for me is that certain people in the Remain camp are just refusing to accept the result and they continue to moan about it. Incessantly. 

@CHANGES is spot on. It is time for us ALL to respect the decision and move on together in a positive manner to make the best of it. If we do, then we have a good chance of succeeding. The reason we are where we are now is that people have bitterly fought against the result for 3 years. We have had a myriad of underhand tactics to try to reverse it. We have had three years of our negotiating position being undermined and during that time of discourse internally the EU has responded by mocking us, bullying us and trying to subvert our democratic right.

They succeeded in overturning key referendums in Ireland and the Netherlands but somehow, we battled through and we achieved our goal. With absolutely no thanks to Remain.

So please do forgive me when I say enough is enough. Stop undermining the country's position. Stop talking us down. And get behind making a success of it 

But if you really do feel that the term Remoaner in the face of all of this is deeply insensitive then thank your lucky stars you weren't on the Leave side. Your sensitivities would have been shredded.

[Jacques 967]

Come on good people of England. You have won (voted) your freedom. It's more valuable than money or fame, because it contains integrity and cannot by it's nature be subdued for eternity.

Or look at it this way: Now the leavers have won, Well, in fact I think everyone in the UK have won. But on the other hand, one might say that during all these many years of being a member of the ec, there have been millions of British people surpressed. And they sucked it up (or what ever the term is), and now it's just the opposite.

Nah, I think you all won - the war is over, enjoy the peace untill the next stormy weather.

Just take a short walk down memory lane and remember when the eastern wall fell (and the Berlin wall). Yes, money was not fed to the right people, so that many in east Germany did not get a chance to recouperate the advancements that the west side had gone through. Some even today claim that they would prefer to go back again in the eastern communist regime that once was. Because they don't have to think, they don't have to struggle on some levels, and they don't have to decide what they want to do with the responsability that freedom gives instead of a nanny state. But think of all the free souls who fought to escape suppression and died trying. Better to try than kill the soul. My wife was born behind that eastern wall, and I can tell you for sure, that it was not a midsummernights dream. It was hell on Earth. Constant lacking food, constant being surpressed in speaking or writing, constant surveilance. And millions ended up dead or near dead in prisons and concentration camps.

As the Romans said: you can control people by deprive them everything or give them everything. In either case, they will stop thinking. Do you think that the ec freely wants to give the same chance you had, to other member countries? In the national radio, even yesterday, they told on the news, that the ec wants to tighten the web over the people even more. Even tighter.

Or do you remember that boy who stood alone in front of a chinese tank on the square of the Heavenly Peace? He wanted one thing: freedom. No more tyrany. No more suppression. No more control.

I think the ec is a failure and a catastrophe by definition, because it offers money and success to those who are rich enough to always stay on top of things. Where as it offers small crumbs to the vast majority on the scaffort where it sacrified freedom. Crumbs such as save ½ hour when going abroad, make the cucumbers straight, let's survail every single individual, let's lower the salary but keep prices up etc. etc. etc.

Do you think Bonaparte offered real freedom and prosperity to the masses after 1789? No, he wanted connonfodder to become a dictator. Another regime in history.

I am not entirely convinced that everyone in the UK realise just how lucky you are. Maybe, just maybe, it's like having grown up inside a house that had it all, everything you need, save that one thing. And then one day the door to the entire world opens up, and you step out, out of the house that you have been thinking of as being the whole world, when in fact it was never that. Freedom can be quite overwhelming.

Never mind pettyfull little things like a passport, the currency and ½ hour more traveling time when going abroad. I am sure we can come to terms of a trading agreement etc. after a while.

Now step out of that jail you've been thinking of as your home for the last 46 years, and enjoy. Some may for a while say "no, I don't want that; it's blinding; it's not safe. Of course it's not safe. Anything disasterous can happen, and sometimes it does. But the same disasters may happen inside the cage. We're just trained not to see it. They are excused. It's only natural. 

In fact, I believe you'll like it!

Today, ladies and gentlemen, you should all be proud and spell your names with capital letters only!

Kind regards,

Jacques

[rocket63 137]

6 hours ago, oilmagnet477 said:

£6.99 for a 50p piece!

Who makes them? Porsche perhaps....

More like the Labour mint  

[100th_Idiot 369]

12 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I had read your post and I actually agreed with a lot of it. The bit I took exception too was your point about the particular term you referenced being deeply insensitive given the terms used against leavers. I struggled to see that point and still do.

The main issue for me is that certain people in the Remain camp are just refusing to accept the result and they continue to moan about it. Incessantly. 

@CHANGES is spot on. It is time for us ALL to respect the decision and move on together in a positive manner to make the best of it. If we do, then we have a good chance of succeeding. The reason we are where we are now is that people have bitterly fought against the result for 3 years. We have had a myriad of underhand tactics to try to reverse it. We have had three years of our negotiating position being undermined and during that time of discourse internally the EU has responded by mocking us, bullying us and trying to subvert our democratic right.

They succeeded in overturning key referendums in Ireland and the Netherlands but somehow, we battled through and we achieved our goal. With absolutely no thanks to Remain.

So please do forgive me when I say enough is enough. Stop undermining the country's position. Stop talking us down. And get behind making a success of it 

But if you really do feel that the term Remoaner in the face of all of this is deeply insensitive then thank your lucky stars you weren't on the Leave side. Your sensitivities would have been shredded.

It would be nice to move on but I don't think that is reality. There will be a small group forever vocal. We did after all have many many years of complaining about being in the EU until we got the referendum. That's just the way it is here.

[Barrykearley 7,174]

21 minutes ago, 100th_Idiot said:

We did after all have many many years of complaining about being in the EU until we got the referendum. That's just the way it is here.

There’s been a creep right from day 1 towards a full United States of Europe. There was a treaty signed at the end of WW2 which agreed the border of Europe would extend no further east. It seems ever since the EEA this has been utterly ignored and the Russians, whom without their assistance in WW2 Hitler would probably have been victorious, set up as the panto villains.

We the British people have never had a say over the continued signing away of our sovereignty and rights to self rule. This has been done by political parties of all colours upto now.

We are probably sat in the most interesting  part of history since the late 1920s right now. The rise of the nazis, the Cold War and the lessons which clearly should have been learned from these dire moments in history appear to be forgotten.

[C8RKH 6,778]

I do believe @Barrykearley that the unchecked march of the EU across Europe will in the future be a major talking point in history.  

What started out as a collaboration over trade has morphed into a Federalist Movement that is consuming 27 countries. It is eroding national identities and it is enforcing rules that people have not voted for.

I wonder. If this was the premise of a Lucas film whom would the audiences be rooting for? The Empire of the EU or the small band of resistance fighters? Granted our leader, BoJo is more Jaja Binks than Han Solo but hey, that side won eventually.

I'd be happy to shut the fook up and just get on with the job in hand. Unfortunately, I fear the incessant whining is some way away from dying down.

In the mean time I'm focusing on doing my job well. Helping my employer to succeed. And enjoying life in the UK whilst it still remains united, even if that is a tenuous united.

[gregs24 151]

2 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Unfortunately, I fear the incessant whining is some way away from dying down.

 

Well the incessant whining to leave for the last 47 years never stopped from some quarters, so I wouldn't hold your breath !

[100th_Idiot 369]

43 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

There’s been a creep right from day 1 towards a full United States of Europe. There was a treaty signed at the end of WW2 which agreed the border of Europe would extend no further east. It seems ever since the EEA this has been utterly ignored and the Russians, whom without their assistance in WW2 Hitler would probably have been victorious, set up as the panto villains.

We the British people have never had a say over the continued signing away of our sovereignty and rights to self rule. This has been done by political parties of all colours upto now.

We are probably sat in the most interesting  part of history since the late 1920s right now. The rise of the nazis, the Cold War and the lessons which clearly should have been learned from these dire moments in history appear to be forgotten.

Slightly orthogonal to the point I was making about being divided and having a core of remain supporters that will always be complaining just as we had a core of anti EU supporters that didn't stop complaining. There will be those that support further integration and will sincerely believe in that goal. We have to accept they will never stop.

[Barrykearley 7,174]

I absolutely agree with you here @100th_Idiot. There were political defendants even after WW2 of the nazi regime. This has only recently been criminalised in many ways. 

the social experiment is over by the looks of it. I for one will be expecting to see the rise of more countries wishing to have their own freedoms once more. Politicians and leaders come and go as part of democracy. But the EU project by its definition is about centralised control and snuffing out democracy as part of the conceived “greater good”

my point remains - we are in pivotal historic times - where it appears we have already forgotten the lessons of history 

[pete 1,977]

There is an interesting couple of documentaries on at the moment of Ed Balls in euroland looking at the rise of right wing extremism in Europe.

[pete 1,977]

How come Leo Varadkar has become the spokesperson for the EU, issuing threats to us. Surely has more to lose than most and might not even be in power for much longer

If the EU as a whole is thinking the same as him then j can see no deal back on the table

[C8RKH 6,778]

3 hours ago, gregs24 said:

Well the incessant whining to leave for the last 47 years never stopped from some quarters, so I wouldn't hold your breath !

I do believe you're exagerating but we're use to that :)

I think you'll find that the whining to leave really started when the common trading bloc decided it wanted to be so much more than just that. Indeed, we had around 12 years of whining before we joined, in particular from the French, who tried to do everything possible to keep us out!  Since we joined they often whined about us being in there as we actually brought a lot of balance and a modicum of common sense to the debate.

Whine away. It won't change anything for the next few years but if it makes you happy then hey, keep going...

[pete 1,977]

You should be used to constant whining by now,you have the no 1 whiner

"I want another referendum for Scotland'"

[C8RKH 6,778]

19 minutes ago, pete said:

You should be used to constant whining by now,you have the no 1 whiner

"I want another referendum for Scotland'"

oh please, not on here too...

[gregs24 151]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

 

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

 

Whine away. It won't change anything for the next few years but if it makes you happy then hey, keep going...

I wasn't aware that I was whining, merely expressing an opinion that people on both sides of the argument are capable of it.

Your position on the brexit debate is clear and I have no intention of telling you mine (if I even have one) as it adds nothing to the discussion. Enjoy your 'victory' which is sadly how many people from both sides view it - lets hope for your sake that you gain more than you lose, because you will surely experience both.

 

[Barrykearley 7,174]

https://www.facebook.com/518938000/posts/10157770544488001/

[gregs24 151]

3 hours ago, pete said:

How come Leo Varadkar has become the spokesperson for the EU, issuing threats to us. Surely has more to lose than most and might not even be in power for much longer

If the EU as a whole is thinking the same as him then j can see no deal back on the table

I don't think his threatening words regarding fisheries were on behalf of the EU rather Eire. Sadly he was only responding to the equally puerile rhetoric coming out of our own PM. 

Fortunately the real negotiations are carried out by intelligent trained people you have mostly never heard of rather than the political gesturing from the figureheads. Varadkar is only playing to Irish voters in the same way Boris was with his hard line gesturing. Negotiations always require compromise, not threats, to be completed, which is what will happen.

[pete 1,977]

Seems like an EU threat to me 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/27/brexit-eu-will-have-upper-hand-in-trade-talks-says-leo-varadkar

[Barrykearley 7,174]

Yeah yeah - of course they have the upper hand.

Germany are now in recession and they will need unrestricted access to our car and white goods buyers. Any reduction in their market sales and it’ll be an absolute nightmare for their balance sheet. On the plus side though - they will undoubtedly need to cough up even more money for the vanity EU project if they wish it to continue.

lets just sit at the sidelines and watch the impending implosion

[C8RKH 6,778]

Ireland and Varadkar in particular have been spouting off for a few months now. I actually think it is because they realise that if it does not go there way the Irish economy is totally fecked.

@gregs24 - I don't actually view it as a victory and who knows what the future will hold. I'm in the wait and see but let's be positive camp and just get fed up with the constant tales of woe and doom. Remain or leave, neither of us have crystal ball that works. So, I just want to be positive. I think it's time we just got behind it and made it a success. Hopefully that way everyone benefits.

[USAndretti42 322]

It should hard;y be news that the EU will try to get a deal that's best for them.  Likewise, the UK should try to get a deal that's best for the UK.  The Grauniad article reads like initial position setting for the EU.

[SFO 229]

13 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Ireland and Varadkar in particular have been spouting off for a few months now. I actually think it is because they realise that if it does not go there way the Irish economy is totally fecked.

spot on. time we put them in their place

[pete 1,977]

So Nissan have said that if the eu put tariffs on car exports they will shut their plants in france and spain and double down in the uk where they believe they can sell 1 in 5 of  cars in uk

[C8RKH 6,778]

4 hours ago, pete said:

So Nissan have said that if the eu put tariffs on car exports they will shut their plants in france and spain and double down in the uk where they believe they can sell 1 in 5 of  cars in uk

Perfectly sensible solution. After all the German cars will be too expensive for us. The French and Spanish will be in a huff and not want to sell to us until we let them eat our fish so there will be no Renaults, Seats, Peugeot's etc - thank god lol....

Everyone will be driving around in Skyline GTR's built in Sunderland - wye aye man!  Super. Fantastic. Smashing. Job done lol!

In all seriousness, I have no doubt that all sorts of weird and wacky rumours will emerge. But hopefully we'll get some of  these over the line.

Just be positive. Think "can do" rather than "can't do". Think "we can make this work" rather than "I'm gonna scupper it" etc.

[pete 1,977]