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Brexit


Barrykearley

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Having just watched Nicola Sturgeon this morning debating the options to keep Scotland in the EU I'm wondering about a few things... why was Scotland so in favour of staying in the EU given the majority of England was in favour of leaving? I realise the leave vote was only 4% over the remain but within Scotland the vote to remain was a much bigger margin and not one area voted to leave. I have my own suspicions that Scotland's vote was not so much a vote to stay within the EU but more of a vote to not be governed by London. I have always felt there is a dislike of the English from north of the border and I cynically imagine they would rather be ruled by Mongolia than London. I'm interested to hear the thoughts of the Scottish members on here who have a much better handle on the sentiment of their fellow countrymen.

 

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Someone needs to give her a dictionary with a page marker on the word 'independent'. I don't think she understands  what the true meaning of the word is. 

 

independent

 
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[in-di-pen-duh nt] 
 
adjective
1.
not influenced or controlled by others in matters ofopinion, conduct, etc.; thinking or acting for oneself:
an independent thinker.
2.
not subject to another's authority or jurisdiction;autonomous; free:
an independent businessman.
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1 hour ago, Paul Coleman said:

Having just watched Nicola Sturgeon this morning debating the options to keep Scotland in the EU I'm wondering about a few things... why was Scotland so in favour of staying in the EU given the majority of England was in favour of leaving? I realise the leave vote was only 4% over the remain but within Scotland the vote to remain was a much bigger margin and not one area voted to leave. I have my own suspicions that Scotland's vote was not so much a vote to stay within the EU but more of a vote to not be governed by London. I have always felt there is a dislike of the English from north of the border and I cynically imagine they would rather be ruled by Mongolia than London. I'm interested to hear the thoughts of the Scottish members on here who have a much better handle on the sentiment of their fellow countrymen.

 

So, I'm English by birth, to a Scottish Mother and English father. I have lived and worked in Scotland for 22 years, I have daughter born in England (5 months old when we moved here) and I've had two sons born in Scotland. My family is split 50% English and 50% Scottish So, although not "Scottish" myself, I feel I can at least offer an opinion.

You are correct Paul, in my humble opinion, in that they want to not be ruled by London and also that there is a dislike of the English. Many Scots have a massive 300, 400 and 500 year old chip that carry on their shoulders and they blame everything on Everyone But Me - I was thinking of getting some EBM t-shirts printed. However, there is also a significant proportion who have no issue with the English or anyone else at all. It just seems that if you support Independence and the SNP, then ergo, you have to blame and bash the English regardless. It's a tribal thing I think.

However, just like everywhere else the people who live in Scotland, including myself and my family, are being lied to and hoodwinked by Holyrood, just like we are by Westminster and Brussels, and their leaders have sold a "story" around independence. They believe that they can rise up and be an independent nation and take back control from London and Westminster. The reality has not yet dawned, that what will happen is that they will just be changing their reporting lines from Westminster to Brussels. Indeed, you could practically argue that Westminster has delivered the framework that has given Scotland the highest levels of control and power that any devolved government has in the world. The irony is, that at a time when Scotland is getting this additional power, their leaders are seeking to jump out of this supportive framework and into a new one, with Brussels, that is hell bent on reducing regional control, and tightening control across legal and fiscal policy areas, and many other things that would actually be devolved to Holyrood if it stayed in the UK.

I also think there is a view that Scotland will get what Scotland wants and a lack of maturity in understanding, that just like Brexit, there is going to be negotiation and that by its very nature, not everything that is wanted will be achieved.

The political landscape has changed with Brexit. Indyref2 is not, in my opinion a given, nor is the outcome. The reality will hit home that whilst Scotland gets it's "freedom" from the rUK, it will come at a price. And that price will likely be the acceptance and timetable for Scotland to move from the pound to the euro. The acceptance of full open borders within Europe to allow the full and free movement of people - these two things are Non-negotiable founding principles as far as the EU Commission and Council are concerned - and the latter will result, as a result of Brexit with a land border between the rUK and Scotland. 

So travel between Scotland and rUK will get that little more irksome, but more important, trade between Scotland and its biggest trading partner for exports, the rUK, will be mired with the added complication of currency fluctuations and risk.

Also, in order to accede, let us not forget that ALL 27 remaining EU members need to vote in Scotlands favour. We already know the Spanish, Belgian and Italians are not happy, as they have their own issues that could be stirred up with an easy Scottish ascent into the EU. At the last Indyref Alex Salmond was able to duck the whole EU accession issue as he, in my opinion, lied when he stated that he had full and open discussions and had an outline agreement - he didn't and we all could see that after the referendum. This time, the people will want to see proof.

I think we are in for interesting times, and right now, my dilemma is do I put my home up for sale and move to England now, or wait and see. I was at a 30th party for a friends son last night, met a lovely English couple who've lived in Dunkeld for 40 years and are now considering moving as the "hate" they are getting from so called long term local friends and neighbours as they voted NO in the Indyref has just become to much for them.  That's sad and quite damning really and flies in the face of the Scottish pragmatic, open and welcoming nature that I thought I knew.

Everything is changing, only time will tell if it is for the better.

 

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Woah - @C8RKH on the bright side there's no Welsh in that mix 

:sofa:

funny how lots of people appear to be desiring a socialist communist mix - yet all the while spouting democracy..... I'm confused.:scared:

 

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So the Scottish thing before was all calculated on the price of oil being about $130per barrel wasnt it? What is the price per barrel now? how would that work for them being lower?

As an independant nation of their size would they get money back from the EU rather than having to pay in? Would Germany want to pay extra to cover them?

 

Buddsy

 

 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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Scotland isn't financially sustainable or we'd not have the Barnett Formula, or they're not willing to admit they are and have the Barnett Formula cut. If that was stopped as it would if they weren't part of the UK, they'd be 110% needing money from the EU to sustain themselves financially I'd imagine.

Oil is currently just over $50/barrel, it doesn't look good for their economy.

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19 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Scotland isn't financially sustainable or we'd not have the Barnett Formula, or they're not willing to admit they are and have the Barnett Formula cut. If that was stopped as it would if they weren't part of the UK, they'd be 110% needing money from the EU to sustain themselves financially I'd imagine.

Oil is currently just over $50/barrel, it doesn't look good for their economy.

Public spending per head in Scotland is lower than in England, and has been for quite some time, albeit that was not the case when the Barnet formula was first instigated. Currently as a % of GDP Scotland spends about 42.5% of GDP on welfare, compared to around 45.5% in England. However, Scotland does benefit through Barnet as only about 17% of the cuts in England, have been passed on to Scotland via the Barnet changes.

Oil is not the whole story, the biggest problem facing Scotland is her demographics - you see whilst England has benefited greatly from immigration (largely younger, more mobile and work active people) Scotland's population hasn't and is getting older creating a future time bomb in care costs, especially when you look at free personal care for the elderly, free prescriptions, glasses, etc.

I doubt that anyone in Scotland could credibly argue that a divorce from the UK would not result in hardship and a loss of budget. Additional cash would be needed to keep the standard of spending the same, or,services would need to be cut. Simples.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Wow - it looks like finally we are seeing some sanity in the EU - democracy will win and well done the UK for having the bravery to kick start it.

 

French economy minister Emmanuel Macron suggested a new mission statement should be drafted and put to a referendum of all EU citizens.

"We've never had the courage to organise a true European referendum in its real sense," he told a conference.

"We would first build this new project with European peoples and then submit this new road map, this new project, to a referendum [across the bloc]."

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

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If the petition had more than 24m legitimate signatures then I'd agree there's a strong case for another poll (more than 50% of the eligible voters), as it would could mean that half the country doesn't feel comfortable with the outcome, but 2.5m is relatively a small proportion of the electorate. And, wow, some people put on false details, what a surprise. I wanted us to remain, and know that c 1/3 of the eligible voters expressed an opinion that they wanted us to leave, but it was the majority of those that expressed an opinion in the recognised method, so we have to accept that.

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Same here, the calls for a new or further referendum just look like sour grapes and a snobbish attitude (despite Farage`s previous comment that he wouldn`t be happy with a 52-48% result which was what he got  !) .

Made me laugh though when Cornwall voted out then realised they got 60 million a year subsidy from the EU and were told by Leave they`d get the money replaced out of that lovely 350 million a week (that one will run and run) even if they voted out !  It seems that they are now cap in hand to Westminster for that missing 60 million. Sometimes you don`t get to have your cake and eat it. 

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Lol what really makes me laugh is that just 2 days after the result, with no notice to quit and no negotiation every one seems to be whinging and moaning and bitching and asking where their money is. Well, it's exactly where it was on Thursday before the result and if was coming from the Eu then it will still be coming from the EU.In other words right now nothing has changed. Also, referendums are called and are treated as advisories under UK law I believe - i.e. if the Government really wanted to, it could just issue a statement thanking the people for their views and informing them that no action would be taken

The amount of negativity, hate, bile, crying, whinging and moaning is just getting really really tiresome. And as for those voters who are now saying, "yes, I know I voted leave but did not think my vote would count" - I'm sorry, but you deserve what you have got for being so bloody stupid to think that you feckless [email protected]!  Shit there I go, negative name calling - oh, bugger, I'm an idiot.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Just watched Coldplay at Glastonbury. According to Chris Martin we have witnessed "the collapse of our country". What is the matter with these people?

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According to the News here in Australia, everyone is asking for another referendum to make sure the first referendum was right. :coffee: 

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All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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I think this is how it will play out in the end. But not before a massive full-spectrum campaign explaining why "remain" is the only right answer. After the 2nd referendum, when we see a reversal of the current results, we'll be treated to headlines of how "democracy prevailed".

Vanya Stanisavljevic '91 Esprit SE | '97 XK8

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@Vanya that just ain't gonna happen.

brits are funny old folks - politicians need to be very careful now and follow the direction laid down by the voters. 

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The body with the biggest influence in the EU has always been German industry. In fact the whole EU structure is geared around them. They will likely push for, and get, a free trade deal with the UK.

Our side should agree to continuation of free movement of people but no benefits whatsoever paid to non-EU citizens and compulsory health insurance.

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  • Bibs changed the title to Brexit

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