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  • Gold FFM
30 minutes ago, tim_marra said:

Unlikely. George Floyd was apparently trying to turn his life around. Awful crime for which he served his time. None of which justifies the manner of his death in the hands of the police which was disgraceful at best.

In which case - maybe ian Huntley should be allowed a second chance? He absolutely should not have been killed in the manner he was - however what this is morphing into simply has nothing to do with him. 

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I’m actually bored of this whole subject now.  Personally I don’t care if you’re black. I also don’t care if you’re white. I don’t care if you are straight. I don’t care if you are gay. I don’t care

I also have a huge issue with "taking the knee". Historically you "took the knee" to show your fealty to a superior, a ruler. So essentially, you were acknowledging that you were subservient to a "bet

I hope not to get enmeshed  in further arguing my following observations. I really wish to state  my opinion and be moving on so I am not addressing the following to anyone in particular, rather to a

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  • Gold FFM

This really is going too far and someone really is going to get hurt. It's thuggery, pure and simple and no justification for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/07/blm-protesters-topple-statue-of-bristol-slave-trader-edward-colston

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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22 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

In which case - maybe ian Huntley should be allowed a second chance? He absolutely should not have been killed in the manner he was - however what this is morphing into simply has nothing to do with him. 

Ian Huntley's time will be served when he is dead, and not before.

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  • Gold FFM

Interesting that the comments seem to have dried up re the protests and protesters. It seems that criminal damage, defacing of memorials to those that gave their lives for the country and the attempting to burn the national flags are not newsworthy? 

I fully agree that all lives matter, which is why I find the behaviour of some (by all means not the majority) of these protesters totally unacceptable and unjustifiable.

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Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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  • Gold FFM

Well the media has just highlighted the exact reason some of these folks get a disproportionate amount of police attention.

its nothing to do with colour - it’s attitude.

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10 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Aside from the illegality and irresponsibility of their actions, what do they actually want? What do they expect the UK Government to do that will satisfy them?

That's the bit I don't understand. 

hindsight: the science that is never wrong

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BBC 1 currently has a programme on called "Sitting in LImbo", about a Windrush man wrongly detained by the Home Office and threatened with deportation,

Either very unfortunate scheduling or someone at the BBC is having a laugh.

 

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  • Gold FFM

The bbc are taking the p£ss. They are an absolute disgrace. 

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  • Gold FFM

Windrush is a fcuk up on a monumental scale and shame on the UK Governments (note, this is not a new issue) for not dealing with it with respect. Same goes for our shocking treatment of commonwealth soldiers who served this great country. Sometimes we really need to get our shit together and just do what is right without any fuss nor bother.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Wow...the defacement of the Churchill statue in London... from my place as a French who knows how much we owe him.... very hard to accept this kind of thing.

Analyzing the human history through an anachronistic way is ridiculous and very dangerous for everyone (yes everyone).

 

 

 

 

 

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  • Gold FFM

The lefties are now removing other statues - and talking of renaming things.

Our history is being rewritten and erased. Adolf Hilter was the last person to try and do this.

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Identity politics, western liberalism, and virtue signalling in their death throes. And what a death rattle it is! 

George Floyds murder is the western equivalent of Mohamed Bouazizi's self immolation in Tunisia which sparked off the Arab Spring. 

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  • Gold FFM

Certain history should be taught but not celebrated. 
 

you don’t go to German cities and see a big statue of hitler saluting, or indeed any nazi statues at all. 
 

what do you mean we need to take this down.....it’s our history 🙄

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Judging people who lived centuries ago by 21st morality standards isn’t really applicable. How far back do we go in trying to erase history?

What next - dismantle the colosseum in Rome?

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  • Gold FFM

If we don't judge by todays standards then how do we move forwards as a society? This is how all those sex pests got caught as it was "just done" in the old days. This is how women got the vote, how they got the right to have children AND have a career. I could go on....

No one is asking for any history to be forgotten, where have any of you read that? They are just stating racist symbols, those that made their money in the slave trade shouldn't be there as a constant reminder or as a celebration of what a good man this person was, when we clearly know they weren't. Just because you could do something doesn't mean you should and that was the case back then as well. 

There are many more deserving people who have done genuinely great things in this world that should have their statue erected in their place. 

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1 hour ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

I wonder what percentage of Joe Public even knew who the people depicted by these statues were and what they had done? <1% I would imagine. Still as long as that tiny minority are happy now, that’s all that matters.

I’m one for sure. Being born and bred and schooled in Bristol and having walked past that statue a thousand times, I had no idea who the statue was.

I’ve been to many many concerts/gigs in The Colston Hall in Bristol. I still have friends that went to Colston Girls School.
In Bristol a couple of the biggest main roads in the City Centre are Blackboy Hill and also Whiteladies Road. 
I can’t see any of the above still being called those historical names in 12 months time. History will not be forgotten but it is being erased.

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Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut!

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  • Gold FFM

@BatMobile maybe the answer is not to judge by past or current standards. How do we move forwards? We move forwards by studying and analysing history. Through this study and analysis we improve our learning. With reference to slavery that means we better understand that it is, and was wrong (by the way, slavery still exists today in many parts of the world). We understand the conditions and we can therefore empathise with those who were wronged.

Slavery was and is immoral and wrong. However whether we like it or not it was lawful by many laws of many lands.  It was a means to an end, mostly, the provision of "cheap" labour to fuel economic growth. The result of this being that those who had slaves grew fatter and wealthier than those that did not.

I'm not sure what you refer to about the "how women got the right to have children bit" - I genuinely thought that was a god given right through design and thanks to fully functioning ovaries, a womb and vagina. However, I might have miss understood my religious studies and biology lessons.

Statues and plaques etc are erected usually, at the time and are of the time.  Shall we pass a new law that says every 100 years we will tear down all the statues/plaques we now feel are unjust/unworthy and replace them with new ones?  That is a tad like rewriting the history of the nation.  We already have campaigns to rename things like 300 year old pubs from things like the Black Cock etc.  Where does it end?

However, this is all lost on me and all respect for the cause has been lost by me, through the actions of the protesters who think that desecrating the tributes to the war dead, burning the flag, and to great leaders like Churchill are a fit and proper way to act.  

I would argue that would have stated was a "constant reminder of a celebration of what a good man this person was" was largely unknown by 99% of the population who past it and never even gave it a second look. But still, the populist view will prevail. As always.

 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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  • Gold FFM

My reference to women was that they were held down for having children and their careers suffered hence the massive capital letters used in spelling AND. Something that is rightly being corrected in the current climate. However just like an elastic band society doesn't snap immediately back to normal, it goes the other way before reaching a happy, sensible point. This is shown by the fact my firm undertakes many searches where diversity is the clear priority. You can argue that isn't right but it's righting an historical wrong and that takes time and action. Every Fortune 500 company is doing this, so are they all wrong or do they all realise they have an equal responsibility to create a new normal and that requires such drastic action. 

So you are saying the 1% (and in Churchills case the one person) who have done wrong give you the justification to diminish or not respect the current movement? Despite 99% of the people handling it correctly? Despite many white people being equally involved in causing this damage you speak of?

I think you have to look within yourself and ask why are you so bothered that this statue has been taken down. Is it that it's genuinely an incorrect decision or is it because of something deep within you that doesn't like it. For this is the problem that the movement is trying to bring to the fore and remove from society. 

I detest the idiots who are being stupid but being an idiot, as some of these comments clearly show, isn't a one colour problem. It doesn't discriminate and they will always do it when the situation allows. The rational majority have to keep the message clear and not let it distract from what's important. 

If (and that's a huge assumption) things go too far in the removal of statues then speak up but at this moment in time the mandate is clear - remove statues that were clearly representing racism - I'm unsure how that can't be supported. 

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  • Gold FFM

Ok I missed the inference on the women bit. But then I have always had an issue with the fact that it seems to be a right for women to have a career AND have full engagement in their child's care, were for many years, and still today, it is EXPECTED that men will forfeit a lot of time with their child's care to focus on their career.  Just ask a separated father how important they are judged by the laws of this land and the support services etc.  Just another way of looking at it, there are always two sides of the story but thankfully things are getting better for both men and women to get a balance.  And before anyone thinks, no, I do not believe a woman's place is in the home, but at the same time I do not believe that a company or colleagues should have to "support" people with kids. After all, many people have to hold down a job and be a full time carer for family members including parents, grand parents etc.  They're just expected to get on with it. But hey, that's a different story I guess.

Yes, the acts of the few have always destroyed the rights of the many. It makes no difference to me whether the perp is white, black, or any other colour - I don't notice it to be honest!

So how do we reconcile the fact that some of the people on the statues, despite being dastardly owners/purveyors of slaves, where also some of the most benevolent funders of improvement in their cities and regions? For instance, the guy in Bristol who's statue was pulled down also did a lot of local good. Supported strongly local worthy causes. And donated his entire fortune to the community when he died.  I know, I know, what a despicable bastard eh?  but let's just ignore the good, and the focus on what was bad, but I hasten to add legal at the time!  As ever, two sides to the coin/story.

It's easy to get caught up in the fervour and emotion just now. It's topical. It's everywhere. My concern though is that "mob rule", however lawfully dictated, is rarely in the long run a good thing. It is full of emotion. It is highly charged. Hmmm, my grandmother used to say a "decision in haste...."

The protest has moved on from being about George. It is now just an excuse for everything for some.  Take a deep breath. Look deeply at the issues. Then plan a way to improve. Far better than getting all excited about toppling a stupid statue that nobody really noticed anyway.

 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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Rarely are historical figures either all good or all bad, they’re a mix. The behaviour of Roman emperors to English Kings would be wholly unacceptable by 21st Century standards. Who decides whether memorials to them should be allowed to remain?  Certainly not an angry mob.

Good and bad, it’s all part of our history, it’s what makes us who we are today and we can’t just erase it. It’s important that we remember where we came from and it helps us judge the progress we have made as a society.

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