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Artie

Disappointment?

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Okay, well I visited the dyno(rolling road) again today after fixing my wastegate problem. The weather was less than ideal as it was 90F and 89% humidity. I did make progress as last visit with .95-1.05bar max boost she made 274hp and 275torque. Today she made 265hp(why?) and 296lbft and was holding 1.10 bar. I can't really explain why she would make such great torque numbers but lower HP except that I was picking up quite a bit of knock. She knocked about 3-4 times per run, pulling about 3-7 degrees of timing. My suspicion is I filled up at a gas station down the road from the dyno and the fuel from the station has been suspect. Anyway, I plan to run all the fuel out and refill at my usual gassing hole as I've had no knock for some time now and suddenly I get knock when I fill up at a different place. I am somewhat dissapointed as I was really hoping to hit the 300 whp mark, but with the torque numbers she made, I'm sure it's just a factor of the knock we're getting. Any thoughts are welcome.

Artie

Edited by Artie

89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
No suggestions Artie, just to say - "Good Grief!" :w00t:

~ 270 bhp! What is like standing next to that? Ear plugs in?

Iain

:thumbup:

Thanks Iain, she sounds quite good, I got a video I need to post on Youtube. I am thinking the 2 1/2 inch exhaust is too small and needs to be made in proper 3". She kept blowing the wide band 02 probe out of the exhaust at 18psi.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Did you messure the intake temp ?

Is the chargecooler woorking proparly?

Is the cooling water circulating?

Did you have the wideband lamda conected?

Are your fuel pump up to the task?Do still using stock gas tanks?Rust in the pick up filter?

Is your fuel pressure regulator working proparly?Bend on a fuel line?

Well its a heck lot to check.

Put a fuel pressure guage up on the rearwindow and read the pressure while driving at WOT.

Have had several problems on my Esprit+other cars with the fuel delivery.

Edited by rydning

89 Lotus Esprit Turbo S

Very fast road and trackday car.

GT3076R+ a lot of other modifications.

http://lotusespritwo...inZzdningz.html

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Anyway I`m told that the stock V8 have 260 rwhp.........

So you are on the right side at least :thumbup:

When you find out whats does the deto you will be over 300rwhp easily.

It might be that the dyno is reading low also??

Is it conected to a computer where you can put in temp/pressure?


89 Lotus Esprit Turbo S

Very fast road and trackday car.

GT3076R+ a lot of other modifications.

http://lotusespritwo...inZzdningz.html

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Did you messure the intake temp ?

Is the chargecooler woorking proparly?

Is the cooling water circulating?

Did you have the wideband lamda conected?

Are your fuel pump up to the task?Do still using stock gas tanks?Rust in the pick up filter?

Is your fuel pressure regulator working proparly?Bend on a fuel line?

Well its a heck lot to check.

Put a fuel pressure guage up on the rearwindow and read the pressure while driving at WOT.

Have had several problems on my Esprit+other cars with the fuel delivery.

Robin,

Okay, glad you asked but all bases covered.

MAT's maxed at 45C

A/F is 12-12.3 max

Fuel pump is brand new Sport 300.

Stock gas tanks, pick up filter is new with pump and no rust in the tanks when I put the pump in a few months back

Don't think there's a bend in the line.

I haven't driven with the Fuel PRessure gauge hooked up but base pressure is normal

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Anyway I`m told that the stock V8 have 260 rwhp.........

As much as I'd hate to disappoint...

So does a stock 4-pot...

post-246-1185736518.jpg


"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence." - George Washington

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Craig - not wishing to rain on your parade, but I think you'll find that's at the crank, rather than at the wheels.

The SE is flat rated at 264bhp (so that tallies with your dyno run) with a temporary overboost under certain conditions to 285bhp. You can probably knock 50-60bhp off that for transmission losses though...so 285 R(ear)W(heel)hp would be more like 350bhp at the crank.

My DPO reckons that with the ton of work he did to my SE engine, she's good for 330rwhp - not that I'm planning to corroborate that on the rollers!

Edited by islandbloke

Proud recipient of the LEF 'Car of the Month Award' February 2008

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: "Wow, what a ride!!"

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Craig - not wishing to rain on your parade, but I think you'll find that's at the crank, rather than at the wheels.

The SE is flat rated at 264bhp (so that tallies with your dyno run) with a temporary overboost under certain conditions to 285bhp. You can probably knock 50-60bhp off that for transmission losses though...so 285 R(ear)W(heel)hp would be more like 350bhp at the crank.

My DPO reckons that with the ton of work he did to my SE engine, she's good for 330rwhp - not that I'm planning to corroborate that on the rollers!

That's at the rollers brother, and having built my first 10 second car in 1992, means it ain't my first rodeo on the dyno. The Dynojet 248x really has no way of calculating crank numbers. I'll save the driveline loss debate for another day, but sorry, and I've said it before... ~22% is ridiculous. That's Audi quattro territory. Yes, it was in overboost, 4th gear pull. It did have a Quicksilver cat delete at the time but still had the ebpv. I had the car base lined at the wheels for a reason, and I'm well aware of the factory claims. It's much crazier now...

Now, that all being said... I think Arite's car will probably post numbers at the wheels that could vary "substantially" in either direction. It needs dyno tuning, not just dyno pulls. The right timing makes all the difference. A dyno pull is just a snapshot in time under certain conditions. As many of us know, Modded Esprits have both their good days and wtf days. It happened, I was there, believe what ever you want, but not having had your Esprit on the dyno...

http://www.thelotusforums.com/lotusespritf...&pid=111741

please don't be so quick to assume...


"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence." - George Washington

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Hi All,

I don't like to spoil your sad party ... but please give up doing that dyno thing with Esprits once and for all ...

Its like measuring your manhood with a ruler once a year to proof that it is still competetive ...

The Esprit will never give a good figure on a dyno (mainly because of too high MAT-readings), unless you fool the dyno (its easy to do that) ...

Drive it and enjoy it ... maybe use a G-force meter (like the G-Tech) that will tell you (at least as accurate as the dyno) where you are HP wise ....

Marcus


Marcus

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Craig - I didn't mean to offend - but you said it was a 'stock' SE. If it's running overboost (assuming you mean more than the factory chip allows) and without a cat it's hardly stock.

Having said that, it seems an exceptional number for a 'mainly' stock car.

I'm no stranger to dyno tuning - but not on my Esprit! In the 90's I raced a very modified MG Midget racer, and the thing spent most of its life being tweaked on the rollers. Bit too much like winding a watch with an angle grinder to do it for fun!

I must admit I've wondered about the trans losses my learned friends here quote - but I'm certainly not expert enough to question them.

Marcus - I'm with you (and I think i'm running one of your chips!), although that's easy for ME to say in that my manhood is big enough to fill three prams... :thumbup:


Proud recipient of the LEF 'Car of the Month Award' February 2008

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: "Wow, what a ride!!"

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Well, I certainly didn't intend to start a debate. If you have ideas or suggestions I would appreciate them, Marcus, again, thanks for the input. I'm beginning to see a wide variance in what she'll make from time to time. The biggest positive I see is the fact that my Torque numbers were substantially better this go round. Also, don't forget, my car started life as a standard turbo model. My MAT's never went above 44C, my AFR's were much more stable(12.3-12.5) than those I saw on Htown's dyno and my HP was peaked at the same place about 4K rpm. Anyway, I know only a few have dyno'd but there are many different levels of competence within the community. Unfortunately, tuning is of little consequence since I only have control of the boost via my boost controller, the chip is a WC chip with his Stage 1 turbo.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Well, after further review I have looked over the dyno graph and have realized that for some reason the dyno had quit recording any data above 5200rpm. That being said, peak HP was 264.06 at 5200 rpm, peak torque was at 4K rpm. She was making 239hp at 5200 rpm last run(when I peaked at 274) compared to 264 at 5200rpm. That's 25hp more this go round and 21lb ft! Peak torque was as I said at 4K rpm so I am encouraged. Estimating by the slope of the graph she would have peak HP at around 299 or so.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Well, after further review I have looked over the dyno graph and have realized that for some reason the dyno had quit recording any data above 5200rpm. That being said, peak HP was 264.06 at 5200 rpm, peak torque was at 4K rpm. She was making 239hp at 5200 rpm last run(when I peaked at 274) compared to 264 at 5200rpm. That's 25hp more this go round and 21lb ft! Peak torque was as I said at 4K rpm so I am encouraged. Estimating by the slope of the graph she would have peak HP at around 299 or so.

Artie

Well....thats good news....

Can you post the dyno run you have up to 5200rpm?And boost?

I did think it was something wrong with the calibration on that dyno when torque was higer and hp lower.

Is the No calibrated for ISO? 15/1013mb?

Edited by rydning

89 Lotus Esprit Turbo S

Very fast road and trackday car.

GT3076R+ a lot of other modifications.

http://lotusespritwo...inZzdningz.html

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As much as I'd hate to disappoint...

So does a stock 4-pot...

262rwhp

320bhp -18% loss =262rwhp.

I did see in your garages,that you have done a lot of good mods to it :thumbup:

What boost are you running?

Have you done other mods to the engine?

My pwr/trq curve look very simular,only with higer No.and that its not dropping the bhp before 7000rpm.

Edited by rydning

89 Lotus Esprit Turbo S

Very fast road and trackday car.

GT3076R+ a lot of other modifications.

http://lotusespritwo...inZzdningz.html

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262rwhp

320bhp -18% loss =262rwhp.

I did see in your garages,that you have done a lot of good mods to it :thumbup:

What boost are you running?

Have you done other mods to the engine?

My pwr/trq curve look very simular,only with higer No.and that its not dropping the bhp before 7000rpm.

Sorry, should have clarified... 1.0bar is obtainable with the factory chip. I'm not gonna contribute to half the Esprit community smoking their stock turbos, so I'll leave out how to see 1bar. The dyno pull was with stock SE memcal and code, and a test pipe. Everything else was as it left the factory.

I run a modified #6 code now, and the current turbo can support 47lbs/min at 1.25bar. That run was a few years ago, and yes, charge air temps are a problem with the stock T3, evidence by the the fall off above 6500rpm.

As far as internal mods? Bottom end is still stock. For now. Top end is gasket matched only. Most of everything else is in my garage.


"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence." - George Washington

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Boost is set at 1.25 bar, she peaked at 1.22 and fell off a little to 1.18bar. I can upload the graph tomorrow, after I call the dyno and bitch about the recording. Only thing I can figure is they had the dyno set up on Saturday for a Mustang club dyno day, and they usually set the dyno to quit recording at about 5500 rpm. Anyway, The head has been rebuilt several years ago with Sport 300 valves but that is all. Internal engine components are all stock. You can see my mods in my signature. I have a custom chip by WC which I believe is similar to the 330hp chip and his stage 1 turbo. My MAT's are good at 44C max.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Hi All,

I don't like to spoil your sad party ... but please give up doing that dyno thing with Esprits once and for all ...

Its like measuring your manhood with a ruler once a year to proof that it is still competetive ...

The Esprit will never give a good figure on a dyno (mainly because of too high MAT-readings), unless you fool the dyno (its easy to do that) ...

Drive it and enjoy it ... maybe use a G-force meter (like the G-Tech) that will tell you (at least as accurate as the dyno) where you are HP wise ....

Marcus

Ummm....that seems like an odd thing to say given that you advertise the chips you sell by the horsepower they produce.

The dyno is the one and only tool to truly determine one's horsepower. Can you fool them? Sure if you play with the wet bulb temperature, ambient temperature and barometric pressure settings, but if you're honest about the testing conditions it is a true benchmark for power.

The most common reaction to lower than desired dyno numbers is to exaggerate drivetrain loss to come up with a mythical crank hp number, so I'll give Artie props for avoiding that mess.

274 is a good number, and I would expect that you might get more power with less boost. You're probably pulling timing as you've guessed so your cures will be either less boost or more octane (or a bigger, more efficient turbo of course). The WC turbo is amazing, but the physical size of the unit may still limit its high boost abilities. I wish many more Esprit owners were dynoing and experimenting with different programs and turbos, and I'm really glad Artie has stuck his neck out there to give us solid numbers. I hope to do the same myself soon!

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Dave, Thanks for backing me up, I think it just may be a little different mentality those of us who've been playing with other makes of turbo cars have, ie Toyota or Mazda in particular. Anyway, if you look at my follow up post, the dyno shop, who I talked to today said they were having problems with the tach lead and it was losing signal when the ignition got above a certain voltage point. I now have estimated that the car would have made about 294 or 295 hp at the wheels had the dyno recorded past 5200rpm. I was actually making 25 or so more hp at every point of the dyno up to the point where it stopped recording. I bought this car with one objective in mind, make it live up to it's Supercar status. I wanted to make 300 wheel HP and make it look good/better than it did when I rolled it out of the garage of the neglectful previous owner. And to corroborate what you said Dave, I don't care what is "claimed" every one has excuses just like "A holes" and they all stink! The dyno doesn't lie! Again, I only post this information to seek ideas and also to let other people see what they can expect from certain mods and settings.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Dave,

If you could tell me a different way to classify the chips I would be glad to do it ... honestly.

After years of constant try and error and trying again to get reproducable numbers from Esprits on dynos I gave up doing it. IMHO its nothing but pure torture for the car just to get some numbers that wont tell you much.

Even the most common variations on environment and ambient conditions will give you a difference of around 60-80 HP with an Esprit on a dyno.

- For example, the very same Esprit on a cool day vs. on a hot day will differ around 40-50 HP.

- The very same is true for a c/cooler system that is working perfectly efficient vs. one that is a bit faulty or just a bit heat soaked

- you wont believe it, but fuel temperature also makes a lot of a difference

- not to forget engine oil and tranny oil (temperature and type)

- not to forget fuel quality

- not to forget the state of learned data in the ECU

- not to forget the weather (baro, humidity, temp ...)

You see, just the real parametres will give you an error up to 30% ...

Now the dyno itself (or the operator) comes into play, too. It (he) will also add some error (I'm sure this error is at least 10-20%)

Everybody who ever has tried the very same car on different dynos (the same day or under identical conditions) can tell that there are huge differences.

Honestly, would you rely on your watch and tell people what time it is if you definitely know that your watch is at least 30% off ?

Hmmmmmm ... JMHO, of course.

Marcus

Ummm....that seems like an odd thing to say given that you advertise the chips you sell by the horsepower they produce.

The dyno is the one and only tool to truly determine one's horsepower. Can you fool them? Sure if you play with the wet bulb temperature, ambient temperature and barometric pressure settings, but if you're honest about the testing conditions it is a true benchmark for power.

The most common reaction to lower than desired dyno numbers is to exaggerate drivetrain loss to come up with a mythical crank hp number, so I'll give Artie props for avoiding that mess.

274 is a good number, and I would expect that you might get more power with less boost. You're probably pulling timing as you've guessed so your cures will be either less boost or more octane (or a bigger, more efficient turbo of course). The WC turbo is amazing, but the physical size of the unit may still limit its high boost abilities. I wish many more Esprit owners were dynoing and experimenting with different programs and turbos, and I'm really glad Artie has stuck his neck out there to give us solid numbers. I hope to do the same myself soon!


Marcus

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Marcus,

I will say that the car was on it's way to reproducing very good results. I didn't see that the dyno quit recording data at 5200 rpm where the car was on track to make another 25more HP which is what I expected to see. I am not discouraged and will dyno again in the fall when the weather cools off some and we lose some of the putrid humidity. I can feel difference in performance from hot days to cool nights so I am familiar with what you have experienced. Also, I have been tuning turbocharged rotary engined cars for about 10 years and they too produce wildly differring numbers given intercooler setup, water temp, oil type(yes weight and viscosity affect the contact surfaces of the rotor and the adjacent housings they slide on). Anyway, I don't plan on doing this constantly, I wanted to get some real world info once I got the wastegate working properly. BTW, have you ever smoothed or ported the turbine exhaust outlet? I think there is some room for improvement on the outlet shape and surface porosity.

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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Artie,

Yes we have done this outlet porting ... IMHO you wont feel any difference.

BTW, with serious high flow turbos the outlet gets enlarged anyway.

IMHO its more about the diameter, not the polishing :w00t:

Cheers

Marcus

PS: The best real world "data" you will get when you take her out on an open winding road on a early sunday morning just when the sun comes up ... :(

Marcus,

I will say that the car was on it's way to reproducing very good results. I didn't see that the dyno quit recording data at 5200 rpm where the car was on track to make another 25more HP which is what I expected to see. I am not discouraged and will dyno again in the fall when the weather cools off some and we lose some of the putrid humidity. I can feel difference in performance from hot days to cool nights so I am familiar with what you have experienced. Also, I have been tuning turbocharged rotary engined cars for about 10 years and they too produce wildly differring numbers given intercooler setup, water temp, oil type(yes weight and viscosity affect the contact surfaces of the rotor and the adjacent housings they slide on). Anyway, I don't plan on doing this constantly, I wanted to get some real world info once I got the wastegate working properly. BTW, have you ever smoothed or ported the turbine exhaust outlet? I think there is some room for improvement on the outlet shape and surface porosity.

Artie


Marcus

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Artie,

Yes we have done this outlet porting ... IMHO you wont feel any difference.

BTW, with serious high flow turbos the outlet gets enlarged anyway.

IMHO its more about the diameter, not the polishing :w00t:

Cheers

Marcus

PS: The best real world "data" you will get when you take her out on an open winding road on a early sunday morning just when the sun comes up ... :(

I figured it wouldn't make much difference. I may go the larger high flow turbo at some point but I'm pretty happy with the performance she's delivering now. As for the "data", I couldn't agree more! She puts a smile on my face everytime I put the key in the ignition and listen to her lump roar to life. Only thing better is that same road as the sun comes up and the top is off!!

Artie


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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I'm reminded why I went 'bu**er it.. give me a chevy'...lol

I see there's a nice 4 pot racing in Dutch Supercup right now..

listen to Robin and Marcus and they'll help you find nirvana.. as is it didn't sound too shabby at all.. interestingly ol Hazzrad's car made 297lb/ft but only 250atw.. but then we know that car wasn't working right.. Marcus did try to tell me..

I bet the car is flying now.


It's alive.. alive!!!..

altimeter.gifsai.gif

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I'm reminded why I went 'bu**er it.. give me a chevy'...lol

I see there's a nice 4 pot racing in Dutch Supercup right now..

listen to Robin and Marcus and they'll help you find nirvana.. as is it didn't sound too shabby at all.. interestingly ol Hazzrad's car made 297lb/ft but only 250atw.. but then we know that car wasn't working right.. Marcus did try to tell me..

I bet the car is flying now.

Jon,

I've been listening! Robin has helped a bunch and pointed me in the right direction. Marcus' expertise has been invaluable! I am quite pleased with the power production. I am not in search of monster power figures and I really love the sound of the Esprit 4 pot! The car is quite rapid and accelerates nicely. I shall post more results when the dyno shop gets the dyno working properly.


89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

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