OOPS, CRASH BANG, REPAIR AND RENEW ..

[CHANGES 1,289]

11 hours ago, dclare said:

Totally agree with all the comments here - maintenance by workshops that do not know these cars is a lottery, not just as far as suspension goes but pretty much every aspect of the car mechanically.

However, in terms of GEO setting they are even more specialised because so many adjustments require shims rather than tweaking an eccentric bolt or a few turns on an adjuster......so Dave, who do you recommend to do the job correctly? Northampton Motorsport? Centre Gravity? Any recommendations greatly received!

I can only recommend as I have found . Over the years i have tried several tracking centers , all have had top equipment . Some claim top engineers . But unfortunately they don't all seem to understand Esprit set up .  As you have said the new age mechanics only know the new age adjustments , therefore struggle with the Esprit..  I had very bad expensive experience 10 years back with a then, Lotus ,Ferrari , main dealer who charged £1500 to set my Esprit up totally wrong... Unbelievable... I could see it was wrong , as it leaned to one side, they said that's how some were..  Total Bollocks , but how do you argue with a multi million pound franchise when they hold your car.  I had to pay to get the Esprit back , then take measures after...  At this point I had started talking to Northampton Motor Sport on dyno work.  They were disgusted by what i told them, saying they are familiar with this sort of GEO format..  Needless to say I gave them a try and never looked back ..  So its not the equipment its the mechanic ,or in the case of NMS engineer doing the job.. NMS set up a lot of race/rally and track day cars as well as historic and classic. I think it is this broad base of experience that makes them so good..  They also have the experience to personalize your GEO if you have altered your ride height , suspension spec, or engine performance.. 

When this customers Esprit is repaired it will be getting one of my personally developed, tested and proven suspension upgrades. This is all new adjustable dampers, springs, and Lotac Polly bushing , same as my own Esprit. Then it will be shipped to NMS for full GEO and corner balancing ..  I have also recommended a tyre spec to suit the set up that the customer is keen on..     That should remove all worries of a repeat situation of what transpired. 

 

Saying all this there are other companies that have equally as good reputation , But i still travel 1 1/2 hours to get mine done . 

10 hours ago, LOTUSMAN33 said:

I always make sure everything is cleaned up and lubricated to allow easy adjustment which they appreciate and renew all lock nuts after. Where required I take shims to prevent delays.

Top Tip from @LOTUSMAN33

This can save you a lot of money , at £85 an hour plus VAT for top engineer to struggle with rusty seized nuts, then needing to manufacture shims seems a bit of a waste .. Always take a well presented car, with all specialist parts that may be needed to ensure best value for money ..  .          

[C8RKH 6,736]

It amazes me that people will spend hundreds, sometimes a thousand plus pounds, on a detail and the latest ceramic coat etc. But then often "scrimp" on the important stuff. I have a 20 year old VX and every time it goes in for a service the instruction to a renowned Lotus specialist is the same - whatever she needs mechanically just get it done and get it done right. i usually leave the car with them for a week to allow them the time to look at it properly (happy to leave longer) as I really just want anything mechanical done well, done right. I worry about the bill when I get it but said renowned specialist is also well known for his value too so it is rarely horrendous.  My car may not be the cleanest, nor a concourse winner, but mechanically, I am sure it is one of the "soundest" around which gives me the confidence to actually use the damn thing and use it hard! - like booking three superb track days in 4 days in October (Anglesey, Oulton and Cadwell) with around 900 miles of driving between them (not including track time!).

I'm not mechanically minded/capable myself, but I am really enjoying this thread and the insights (and piccies, I love piccies!) that you and the other mechanically competent contributors are sharing. Thanks for that.

 

[Erikl 12]

Really great to see this Esprit getting rebuilt and put back right.  I think the owner will be in heaven when he gets it back and feels how well the car drives.

[LOTUSMAN33 1,522]

Excellent posting this so thanks 👍

The other thing I try to do which is just me but sensible is replace all the tyres at the same time to maximise the outcome, my view is the tyres are worn to the original set up so where possible you can plan ahead. My Elan drove so bad I had the tyres replaced before but wear was already showing as uneven so on the day paid out for another full set.
My current S2 Elan drives well but not as good as the silver car pictured so when the tyres are getting nearer to changing I will pay out for a half day session again (Post bush check/change and full clean up as already see the lower ball joints were advised on the last MOT).

I think the owner will be elated with his Esprit once Dave has worked his magic just shame it happened after the nice paint job.

Thanks for the tip with the Esprit, I will print off the manual and factory settings to make sure they feel confident first, I do trust them as their eyes light up when I take classics in to play with 😁

Dave

 

[andyblackman777 46]

Shame about the accident. 
What brand of tyres were on it?
 

[snowrx 194]

On the rear GAZ install, is there any isolation between frame and spring or is it metal to metal?

Did you need to fit a longer lower bolt or trim the spacer to allow the Nyloc to catch some threads?

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1 hour ago, snowrx said:

On the rear GAZ install, is there any isolation between frame and spring or is it metal to metal?

Did you need to fit a longer lower bolt or trim the spacer to allow the Nyloc to catch some threads?

On the kit I supply there is a thin rubber membrane in the top alloy adapter seats.  The standard thick rubber spring seats are removed .. 

The set up I provide is just straight bolt on, no trimming of the bearing shoulder spacer will be needed ..   The pic posted of one fitted above, was of a an early mock up unit.  That lower spacer format was what was supplied originally as standard for Esprit.  That along with a few other aspects were slightly changed during development.  Like most things what you buy as an aftermarket product is one fits all mentality .. I try to refine what is available to get the best results ,  GAZ are very good and will supply to my specific requirements ..  Following is  pics of final test set up that was approved .. You will see small difference on spacer set up . 

 

3 hours ago, andyblackman777 said:

Shame about the accident. 
What brand of tyres were on it?
 

Unfortunately they were a budget make, with very pliable sidewall.  This and 255 instead of 245 being  fitted to the rim allowed excessive tyre side wall roll on the rear .. not a good combination when mixed in with the rest.. Once again this should have been pointed out by the technician who fitted them, but i feel today they are just looking for the quick coin..        

  

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Moving on .............. To address the accident repair in the proper way we have to establish the extent of the damage ... Unlike steel constructed car the GRP composite bodied car absorb impact better , but disguise the extent of damage by flexing back toward the original shape after impact.. 

When really bad, sections will detach or disintegrate but not in this case . However the knock on effect of the body flexing is the dreaded gel crack..  We know the point of impact , so the body flex will radiate from that point . Initial focus is on the seams, corners and arches.  These give the biggest clues.   Failure to search out all the gel crack will be a major short fall as it will appear through any new paint weeks ,months or years later, depending on flex points. 

Having done several over the years ,I find they follow a pattern. The gel crack appear in the same areas in most cases.. because of this even if there is no initial sign of gel crack where i would expect it , i will treat that area as if it has , just in case...  WHY ?  Simple really , it only take a few hours when doing as part of the initial job but can take a lot longer and cost a considerable amount to correct later.  It also gives the customer the confidence that you have put in the effort and professionalism to give the best possible results..    Where i differ from most restorers / repairers is i photo all stages as a record of what is done . I then provide the customer with a memory stick with all the data on as confirmation the work was completed to agreed spec.  It would be so easy just to fill or paint over gel crack areas and say nothing , shortening the time needed .  What is it they say?,  what the customer don't see they don't know about.    I have also found in later years the insurance companies like to see or are asking for some photographic record of the hidden work that is carried out , especially on Esprit type work..  Maybe they are getting concerned with individuals abilities on particular models, as we have previously mentioned .. 

So looking at main impact point, we can see the 'B' post has not fully flexed back, and the crack goes all the way though to the rear fire wall ..  Along with the extensive damage to the rest of that panel , it is safe to say this section needs replacing.  To do this properly we will need to remove the engine and gearbox , petrol tank and all ancillaries etc from that 1/4.  This will also better expose the hidden damage ..  This info will dictate how much of the section will be grafted in.. 

Following the initial line of damage brings us to the 'A' post . We noted earlier that it appears to have shifted .  To fully examine we needed to remove the door..  While doing this the 'A' flexed back to its position when the stress of the door holding it was released .. This is a good sign as it shows although there may be damage and cracks in that area its positional structure unlike the 'B' post has not been compromised .  

What we do need to establish is the full extent and best way forward .. To do this we need to fully strip out the dash and interior and remove the sill cover section..   Because this is going to be a complete paint , I decide that this would be a good time to remove the rest of  the panels in preparation..   

Up next.. what we found in removing panels and parts .. 

TBC    

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Whilst removing the various panels and parts I was extremely disappointed by some of the assembly work done by the company that previously painted and  converted the Esprit to later spec..  I won't dwell on this to much , but the amount of loose and incorrectly fitted nuts and bolts was shameful .. The rear bumper only had partial stud plates on top with rubber rivet nuts on bottom , most were finger tight .. The front bumper spoiler was in place but again no lower stud plate, also no belly trays or rad ducts were fitted  ..This means,  No air control on radiator and under body at all .. very poor.   The doors were put together much the same with loose nuts & wires and incorrect assembly ..  Don't get me wrong most of it worked in a fashion , but would not last long .  Very worrying ..   Looking on the bright side , we can correct all theses faults whilst doing our bit.. 

So onto exploring the damage further, This will give me a full understanding of what , why, and how to best fix.  

Although the quarter panel only showed small distortion, in real terms its full deflection was enough to completely split the plywood board on top of the petrol tank . 

When you consider there is a couple of inches gap between the inner 1/4 panel and the tank board , you can start to appreciate the forces involved .. 

On removal of the tank we discover the structure has split right though the inner sill section up to just short of the floor .

There was also de-lamination on sections all up the fire wall joint with distortion to the steel strengthening sections which had done their job perfectly as designed .. 

I can now see exactly how much will need to be replaced with new section to ensure full structural stability when repaired .  

Moving forward to the 'A' post.  We can now see exactly how and why load transfer damaged this area..   It appears that the tie plate that connects the steel 'A' post frame to the sill had dissolved in rust .  in the next pic you can see the stain where it should have been.

The red arrows show the shift direction the 'A'post took, and the blue line is the outer fracture .   On the next pic you can see the area marked with the red is where the cracks extend to on the inside ..  you can also make out the top of the plate and where is has rusted away to .. 

This plate is part of the safety  cell structure and is design to prevent movement of the bottom of the 'A' post in an accident ..   The only thing holding the whole of the bottom of this 'A' post was two small self tappers .   

As you can clearly see , although there are cracks in this area showing movement has occurred, it is not bad enough to threaten the overall integrity , as such can be repaired ..

When the new style sills were fitted during recent repaint, it would have been apparent this plate was missing.   In real terms it would have taken less than an hour to make and replace the plate ..  unfortunately we will have to assume the company doing the work was not aware of the of this part, or its significance , so did nothing about it.    

Now we have established the full extent of the main damaged area's , we can really get started,  so next we will proceed with prep , replace , and repair. 

TBC..   

     

 

    

 

 

 

[Steve V8 1,312]

8 hours ago, CHANGES said:

The red arrows show the shift direction the 'A'post took,

 

[CHANGES 1,289]

We can now start the repair procedure.  The first job is to address the rear body to chassis mount on the O/S . This has had an attempt to repair previous, unfortunately it was a bit DIY and had failed again .. Having an M10 bolt instead of M12 fitted did not help it much..  Once I remove the crumpled steel patch we exposed the problem . 

There is not a lot I can do with that , the bobbin has gone and very little structural strength left in the immediate area.    To correct this we need to strip back the whole area, cut out, then fit a proper repair section .

 

By cutting back several inches and up the wheel well , we can be sure we have removed all the week fractured GRP ..  The next job is to cut a matching repair section to fit . 

  This is secured into position by the the M12 bolt and Cleco's through bridging plates ..  Its not clear in the photo but the joint edges are tapered to a blade edge where they join.  This is done to remove the butt joint effect . this will allow the GRP and resin to create a complete butt joint free surface when completed. Much stronger ..

First stage is to fix in place with 4'' woven fibre tape , pushing into joint area eliminating any air pockets . ( above pic) ..  Then we remove the Cleco's bridge plates and bolt. Apply another layer of woven fibre tape then 3 layers of matt .  

A quick trim,  drill out and face bolt hole , finishes the basic repair on the top ..  The underside is prepped in much the same way with two layers of fiber tape applied to full encase this repair section .   The inside area will eventually get dressed producing a flat finish, with the boot floor rivet nut fixings put in place .  

Now we have the O/S secured in its correct position ,we can move onto the main rear quarter repair ..  After careful consideration and marking out the damaged section is removed ... 

( the following picture may be unsettling to some , so viewers discretion advised ). 

TBC       

  

 

 

 

[Barrykearley 7,153]

A bits fallen off chap 

[Mysterae 270]

Dave, when you say cut out a section and fit a matching section, is this from a donor car? Could you make up a matching piece from what you removed?

Awesome stuff, jealous of being in that deep!

[CHANGES 1,289]

15 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

A bits fallen off chap 

It happens when you get to my age . !!!

[CHANGES 1,289]

10 hours ago, Mysterae said:

Dave, when you say cut out a section and fit a matching section, is this from a donor car? Could you make up a matching piece from what you removed?

Sometimes from donor cars, You can still get Lotus old stock new sections if you know where to look .. And there are some after market parts and  repair sections still available. 

The only way to make a matching piece is to take a mold off the original . To do this the original has to be perfect ..  You also need to consider the cost of making a mold is 3 times the cost of the final part produced . 

 

[Paul Coleman 545]

Reading this reminds me of my own restoration and having to make missing pieces. I was itching for a week after I finished these repairs...

https://ibb.co/DGfPR6T

Edited September 1, 2020 by Paul Coleman

[Clive59 123]

19 hours ago, CHANGES said:

joint edges are tapered to a blade edge where they join.  This is done to remove the butt joint effect . this will allow the GRP and resin to create a complete butt joint free surface when completed. Much stronger ..

Do you ever use epoxy resin for extra strength anywhere, or just normal polyester resin?

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58 minutes ago, Clive59 said:

Do you ever use epoxy resin for extra strength anywhere, or just normal polyester resin?

I use polyester resins but other people use Epoxy, especially when doing a butt joint..  They polly GRP the unseen side to hold in place then rout out the butt joint and fill using epoxy..  Much quicker .. Because of the extra strength that the Epoxy has it is ideal for some  quick repairs .. 

However you do need to consider other factors.. Relying purely on a products strength as apposed to a construction format could flounder in some stressed areas .. By laying up over a larger area the repair strength is greatly increased so the need for Epoxy diminished..  Using Epoxy in an application as we are doing would be overkill ..   Another factor is cost , Epoxy being quite a bit more expensive ..   Also need to consider when using an Amine cured Epoxy , you can get a blush in the finish ..  Because this is a repair you are going to fill and paint over you may dismiss it ..  Unfortunately this can cause serious adhesion problems that can lead to de-lamination or blisters in that area.  But a fully cleaned and prepped surface before next application should eliminate that occurring..   

As with all repairs, technician use various methods . With new products and procedures becoming available all the time this scope will only get wider .   I tend to be a bit old school , my methods take longer , but have been very effective and served me well, whilst also standing the test of time . 

[Barrykearley 7,153]

Heres the true secret

 

[CHANGES 1,289]

On 01/09/2020 at 10:21, Paul Coleman said:

Reading this reminds me of my own restoration and having to make missing pieces. I was itching for a week after I finished these repairs...

https://ibb.co/DGfPR6T

OHH don't mention the itching.. 

[CHANGES 1,289]

Moving on .   We now have the damaged section removed  at the rear and the rest of the structure solid..  I have shimmed some wooden blocks into place where the new section will sit . This is so it will be in the same plane as the one removed..  

Before we can proceed with the body work there is a small section on the chassis that came to light needing addressing..

  This is very common and a real pain to do neatly when not fully re - working the whole chassis .. However i do have a very effective and strong way of dealing with it ..  

The cause is the turbo outlet pipe burning away the zinc coat in this area.. Its not unusual to see this all the way down the tube if the manifold had been a regular ''Glower''   In this case it was only where you can see in pic. 

After grinding out all the thin rusted section I also put a few plug weld holes either side ..   After using an extension on my porting tool , I was able to clean out the inside as well.     I then  machine a section a 3mm walled Dom Mechanical tubing of same o/d to fit the I/D of the chassis tube nice and snug.  Then drifted it into place .. 

After this it was just a case of welding the holes up and linishing . 

To finish off it is given 3 coats of Zinga paint spray, inside and out .. It will finally get painted black to match the rest of the previously painted chassis. 

Now back to the bodywork ..First the new rough cut repair section will  need to be marked out and cut to match the section removed ..   

I can not stress enough measure 'twice' cut 'once' with this .. 

When done we can offer it up to see how close we have it ..  I use Cleco and bridge plates to hold joints in place while i measure and check as assembled unit.  Then re fit the tailgate to make sure everything is square and in correct position ..  

 

 I love it when a plan comes together .

   

 As it turns out this repair section was quite a good match .  They can be a bit hit and miss at times . When a poor match occurs the repairer may have to use a bit of poetic licence .. 

Next up take it all apart again and dress areas ready for permanent joining.. 

TBC     

[Fridge 1,026]

It amazes me that folk spend £000's on detailing their thorough restorations but then skimp on suspension set-up and wheel alignment. Mine was in for most of the day after my complete rebuild. Spotting that the top front ball joint on the nearside needing swapping around just by looking at the front. 

Well worth the outlay. It drives great.

[CHANGES 1,289]

On 04/09/2020 at 11:59, Fridge said:

It amazes me that folk spend £000's on detailing their thorough restorations but then skimp on suspension set-up and wheel alignment. Mine was in for most of the day after my complete rebuild. Spotting that the top front ball joint on the nearside needing swapping around just by looking at the front. 

Well worth the outlay. It drives great.

 

Well said I can not agree more .  I have fitted new suspension and GEO set up to many . The before and after improvements are massive .. It was only when i finalized my version of the damper spring alternative did i feel the Esprit was once again Epic.. ..  

It is very difficult to explain to the lay man, the full interaction between components , that produces the final result ..  If just one of these is out, weak or inconstant, then it all goes to pot ..    

Because a lot of the original components are obsolete , owners are mixing and matching after market products with very little understandings of the logistics involved .  

I am amazed how many fit adjustable dampers, wind them till ride height looks about right and think that's set ..  This is so remiss and will not perform anything like it should ..  They then  generally twiddle with the adjustable rate setting with little understanding on what they are actually achieving.. 

When fitting any adjustable suspension , it will require setting up by a professional with the relative equipment .. (as photo's at top of this page)  .  It is important to get the spring pre load and balance correct so the Esprit can perform as it should .. This can only be done by corner weight balancing .. 

When this repair thread reaches the end, i will be fitting one of my complete damper / spring / bush , set ups before it returns to the road .. I will try to explain the intricacies so owners can get a better understanding and appreciation of why and how ..   

[Fridge 1,026]

I'd be interested in knowing the correct way to set up adjustable (rebound) dampers, as I fitted ProTech dampers all round, but know little about how they should be adjusted.

Though the car drives great. Cornering like on rails, the front can tend to crash over large pot holes, whereas my modern cars are largely unaffected. My local moors roads can be uneven due to severe winters and lack of maintenance.

I recently upped the inspec 18psi fronts to 25psi which has improved matters. Tyres being Maxxis MA-1s which improved things greatly. The rears are Dunlop Classic and remain at 28psi. I figured that new tyre carcasses require and perform better using modern pressures.

Iain Tyrrell spoke recently about suspension in one of his excellent videos on You Tube. Recounting some suspension experts who dismiss adjustable dampers over the basic suspension geometry and spring rates combo.

 

[CHANGES 1,289]

2 hours ago, Fridge said:

I'd be interested in knowing the correct way to set up adjustable (rebound) dampers, as I fitted ProTech dampers all round, but know little about how they should be adjusted.

When I get to that section in this thread i will go into a bit of extra detail with pic's etc to try and make things clearer. 

2 hours ago, Fridge said:

Though the car drives great. Cornering like on rails, the front can tend to crash over large pot holes, whereas my modern cars are largely unaffected. My local moors roads can be uneven due to severe winters and lack of maintenance.

This is where it all get interesting. Having a hard suspension where you have little travel in the spring can make little bumps feel big , with poor contact / traction at same time .. On the smooth roads great , but not all roads are smooth .. Finding the balance with spring rate damping and ride quality is the trick .. 

2 hours ago, Fridge said:

I recently upped the inspec 18psi fronts to 25psi which has improved matters. Tyres being Maxxis MA-1s which improved things greatly. The rears are Dunlop Classic and remain at 28psi. I figured that new tyre carcasses require and perform better using modern pressures.

Tyre's are and always will be an integral part.   Profile,  width, pressure and compound will all have an effect..  again its about the best balance with what you use.. 

2 hours ago, Fridge said:

Iain Tyrrell spoke recently about suspension in one of his excellent videos on You Tube. Recounting some suspension experts who dismiss adjustable dampers over the basic suspension geometry and spring rates combo.

The adjust ability is more a facility to accommodate a requirement , rather than something to play with .. Once set you leave alone till next GEO check , Then if needs a small tweak to allow for settlement is all that should be needed ..   When doing a production car , once you have all the settings then its cheaper to get manufacturer to just repeat the settings in a fixed unit..  Most manufacturers geometry will be the best for any car..  However when original equipment is not available , along with some who like to go off spec , the adjustable format fills the requirement.   This will allow you to get as close to the original design feel with parts that are available .. or personalize to your needs ..   

TBC