Analogue Evora?

[Neal H 876]

3 minutes ago, jep said:

Weight. 

I would tax vehicles on weight. More and more cars are now over 2 tonnes. Unless manufacturers are forced to reduce weight, they will not do it. In the 60s, they all claimed it was not possible to get the internal combustion engine to do 30 MPG. That soon changed with the oil prices shocks of the 70s and more tax on fuel.

You can engineer a safe car without just adding to the tonnage but it will not happen unless the manufacturers are forced to do so. It is purely laziness to just add more and more 'bits' to cars with no regard for the environment and the damage to the road network. Ask Gordon Murray, who has spoken about this many times.

Justin

Fair point. I think I read somewhere that the average car has grown in size by 55% since the 1970’s.

[Bibs 11,162]

In line with the average person no doubt

[Neal H 876]

With the switch to electricity, cars aren’t getting any lighter. All cars will be 2+ tonnes.

The death of the analogue car. Get one while you still can!

[C8RKH 6,254]

If you are talking about electronics then the difference between analogue and digital will be the definition of the signal (infinitely more detailed in digital and easier to control - i.e. smoother) and the speed of response to the signal - digital is much faster. Think of it like with vinyls and CD's - the digital CD is "sharper" due to the more detailed digital signal but it looses out on "warmth" to the less "peaky" analogue.

 

When talking about cars, my understanding is quite simple.  A car that is more analogue "connects" the driver more to the feel of the car and the drivers inputs are responded to directly by the car.  The driver is doing more of the work and the better the driver inputs (smoothness, speed, etc) the better the car drives/goes/etc.  Whereas with a more "digital" car, the cars "aids" do more of the work for the driver (i.e. help the driver more to look like a god) and some of the controls are more "digital" in that they take the "feel" out of the experience.

 

To me it has nothing to do with gizmo's such as electric seats etc.  But to put it into context, would Audi have spent the time and money on developing a magnesium steering wheel, to lower the weight, lower the inertia, and provide a more direct "feel" for the driver in the rather heavyweight R8 with it's electronically controlled and assisted steering? Or, would they have spent the time and money on the super comfy seats with the 3500way directional movement through electrical motors with heating and cooling elements? I think what we are talking about is the "ethos" of cars from manufacturers like Lotus were the focus is on the purity (note I am not saying better) of the connection between the driver and the car, as opposed to the feeling of the driver's ego within the car. A subtle difference in approach/philosophy maybe.

 

 

[mg4lotus 136]

1 hour ago, Bravo73 said:

In this case, ‘digital = with computers’, ‘analogue = without computers”. 

Are you saying that people think the Evora doesn't have a computer? How do the things work in my original post if not by a computer? and the ECM etc.

It's confusing, I think if somebody talks about an "analogue driving experience" we need to challenge them exactly what they mean.

[Bibs 11,162]

'Driving experience' is the key phrase there. They're not asking how the car fuels for different loads and RPM, but how the driver receives feedback from the various sources.

[mg4lotus 136]

@C8RKH I think I agree with you when talking about cars, but I think you are wrong when talking about the difference between digital and analogue. With digital it is either on or off, it is either one or zero, it is working or not working. You can make these tests/controls at a finite number of places. With analogue it is anywhere on the line between one and zero, anywhere between working and not working, so with analogue it could be working but working badly.

[C8RKH 6,254]

3 minutes ago, mg4lotus said:

@C8RKH I think I agree with you when talking about cars, but I think you are wrong when talking about the difference between digital and analogue. With digital it is either on or off, it is either one or zero, it is working or not working. You can make these tests/controls at a finite number of places. With analogue it is anywhere on the line between one and zero, anywhere between working and not working, so with analogue it could be working but working badly.

You are correct for switches yes. I suppose what we are saying here is that for the "analogue" car the feel or performance is more heavily influenced by the driver (the resistor).

Interesting how we talk about about analogue but struggle to define it for the cars.

[Bibs 11,162]

@mg4lotus, you're thinking of binary, not digital. Digital has an almost infinite rate of variances due to being, err, digital.

[mg4lotus 136]

@Bibs When I said digital I was referring to computers and technology which do use binary. It's complicated stuff this English language. 

[jep 853]

Re: electric cars and weight, yes cars will be heavier. All the more reason to tax the weight of cars to force manufactures to do as ACBC/MJK did with the Elite/Eclat; thinner seats, lightweight materials, a focus on low mass. Chapman was convinced this is how luxury cars had to be going forward, with smog legislation and higher fuel costs. 

He was right but (perhaps) for the wrong reasons and ultimately manufacturers were allowed to get away with using BHP to overcome obesity. 

If batteries make a car heavier, best reduce other weight. No more unnecessary electric motors and fripperies. 

Lighten up everyone. 

Justin

 

 

[C8RKH 6,254]

Great post @jep and totally agree.

[C8RKH 6,254]

46 minutes ago, jep said:

Lighten up everyone. 

And, stop over bloating the EV's to give performance that quite frankly the average buyer does not want nor need and focus on range!  When developing the batteries you usually have a choice in the design/make-up between range and performance (i.e. acceleration).  You get Tesla producing "saloons" et al to race McLarens when actually what we need is an EV that will go farther between charges - people need to think - the whole point is less consumption so if you build for range you could probably have smaller/lighter batteries and then increase the range even further. It's a bit hypocritical right now.

[Bravo73 1,297]

3 hours ago, mg4lotus said:

@Bravo73 No, it was more nuanced than that as the computer games were always on computers

Hehe. You don’t say! 

I was referring to your subject of the thread, the ‘analogue’ Evora. This refers to the perception that there are very few computers diluting the feedback that the driver receives from an Evora. A ‘digital’ car would have considerably more - electronic steering, electronic suspension, FBW throttle, now FBW brakes etc etc. 
 

(BTW, in the case of the PSX controllers, they worked like you described. Analogue mode used the full range of the sticks. Digital mode turned the sticks into a d-pad. Left was left, rather than degrees of left). 

 

[Clive59 115]

2 hours ago, mg4lotus said:

When I said digital I was referring to computers and technology which do use binary

they do, but binary in them doesn't define precision, so could be 8-bit resolution, or 1 in 256, so better than 0.5%, or more commonly, 10, or 12 bits, even 16 bits for really accurate stuff. Binary as a number base system is 2 to the power of n, where n is typically 8, 16, 32 or 64 in computer systems. Just for interest, 2^64 (2 to power 64) is bigger than all the grains of sand on the planet. Digital, if modeled well, can re-create an analogue signal very closely.

[Neal H 876]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

And, stop over bloating the EV's to give performance that quite frankly the average buyer does not want nor need and focus on range!  When developing the batteries you usually have a choice in the design/make-up between range and performance (i.e. acceleration).  You get Tesla producing "saloons" et al to race McLarens when actually what we need is an EV that will go farther between charges - people need to think - the whole point is less consumption so if you build for range you could probably have smaller/lighter batteries and then increase the range even further. It's a bit hypocritical right now.

I couldn't agree with this more, but I assume that electric cars are still very expensive to develop and manufacture so have to be sold at a premium over their IC rivals and performance is far easier to deliver than range! You also have to factor in that people are going to want 'something' for paying 50% more than the IC option and even if the range is increased, it will still be considerably inferior to IC. Performance on the other hand....

[C8RKH 6,254]

1 hour ago, Clive59 said:

they do, but binary in them doesn't define precision, so could be 8-bit resolution, or 1 in 256, so better than 0.5%, or more commonly, 10, or 12 bits, even 16 bits for really accurate stuff. Binary as a number base system is 2 to the power of n, where n is typically 8, 16, 32 or 64 in computer systems. Just for interest, 2^64 (2 to power 64) is bigger than all the grains of sand on the planet. Digital, if modeled well, can re-create an analogue signal very closely.

In computers it's actually based on hexadecimal, so the number system goes 0 through to F.  So 16 characters therefore it is a Base16 numbering system. Those 16 characters are broken down to bits, and 8 bits = 1 byte. 2 bytes, which is 16 bits make a "word" for the computer.  That's why you see things in computers that are 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512 etc....  I started out my career in 1985 as a mainframe systems programmer writing in IBM S370 machine code, so hexadecimal or base 16 coding.  It looks and looked nothing like what they call "coding" today but then I'm old, back then resources where expensive so the code you wrote had to be super lean and efficient. We were basically manipulating Registers - god, this brings it all back - code on the left, comments on the right to explain your code and help for problem fixing:

 

The fundamentals from then, till now, have not changed the only thing that has is the added layers of the newer programming languages that add weight, bulk up the code, and slow down it's running. Computer programmes these days are a lot like cars. Bloated. Over heavy and not very efficient!

[Clive59 115]

52 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

In computers it's actually based on hexadecimal

Well, it can be Octal too in some. In olden times on the PDP-11, macro assembler, I seem to recall octal being used in the instructions. Yes, 1 byte = 2 nybbles, and each nybble is a hex(4-bit) number. The computer has no idea of hex as such, it is a human construct, and fundamentally it is binary.

 You had an assembler on your IBM! pah, I had to program my thesis project on a 6502 processor(KIm-2), enter the code, which I had to hand calculate the branches and jumps! And enter the program with a hex keypad, stored the program on an audio cassette. Oh the luxury.

Hex is shorter than binary for sure, easier for us humans to decode. Can you imagine having to debug a binary dump rather than a hex dump?

Ah the fun. Agree, code is bloated now, but when it doesn't really matter if you use a kilobyte or a megabyte, why worry. Until you need to...

 

[JimH 45]

[TdM 168]

To be fair, modern languages make writing code a lot easier with shortcuts built in for complex problems. This means that you can build on other's past experiences and work and make more powerful code in an ever growing way. Which is nice.

 

The compiler will make it more efficient, admittedly you are correct that it results in some serious storage bloat Vs the days of making impressive music videos on a couple of kB. But one is impressive because of the skill used to achieve it, the other is impressive because it makes everyone's lives better.

Which forum are we on by the way? We might have got lost...

[Bravo73 1,297]

Oh, pur-lease. Enough of this scintillating chat. Please take it elsewhere. 

I’m sure that there are plenty of corners of the internet that cater for your sort of clientele. 

[C8RKH 6,254]

We are on a forum on a computer discussing analogue v digital. Think we're in the right place!  Every now again a wannabe Porsche type comes along though to try and spoil our fun!

So, to get back on topic - the Evora is an analogue car NOT because it does not have computers, but because the computers it has do not interfere too much with the interactions of the driver and so the driver has more direct feedback from their inputs and more impact on what the car does, or does not, do.

Contract the difference with a truly digital car like a Nissan GTR where you can set up the computers to compensate for all manner of daft and certainly not delft inputs.

Is one preferable than the other? Well, surely that is purely down to what the driver/owner wants from his or her car. If it satisfies them. Gives them what they want. Then all is good.

I mean, Porsche owners want to be anonymous and not seen as let's be honest no one gives them a second glance these days. Thank god....

[Redwing 14]

FWIW, the reason I consider the Evora to be an analogue car is that when I get in and drive it to the best my abilities, it is as if all the leather, the seat heaters, air con, plastic trim, crappy ICE etc, all disappear and I am driving a totally focussed, stripped out 60's/70's aluminium and fiberglass racer. Only better. Phenomenal. I have never driven another car that does this.

It is all about the driving. I assume that most on here know what I mean. The journey is a pleasure.  It seems to be that most car manufacturers today are  building cars for people who regard the journey as something that has to be endured. Therefore the manufacturers provide all the comfort and driver aids they require, and these are the leaden digital cars. It strikes me that most major sports car makers are pandering to this as well, but I suppose this is how they achieve higher sales.

Oh well, I guess I'm just an analogue dinosaur in a rapidly digitalising world.

I have never driven, yet alone owned, an EV or hybrid but, when that time comes,  I hope Lotus are making a car that will match the Evora, for the Drivers (and not at Evija price levels!)

Redwing 

[jep 853]

Just think how good it would be if you got rid of the excess weight of the seat heaters. 

Justin 

 

[jerzybondov 50]

2 hours ago, Redwing said:

FWIW, the reason I consider the Evora to be an analogue car is that when I get in and drive it to the best my abilities, it is as if all the leather, the seat heaters, air con, plastic trim, crappy ICE etc, all disappear and I am driving a totally focussed, stripped out 60's/70's aluminium and fiberglass racer. Only better. Phenomenal. I have never driven another car that does this.

It is all about the driving. I assume that most on here know what I mean. The journey is a pleasure.  It seems to be that most car manufacturers today are  building cars for people who regard the journey as something that has to be endured. Therefore the manufacturers provide all the comfort and driver aids they require, and these are the leaden digital cars. It strikes me that most major sports car makers are pandering to this as well, but I suppose this is how they achieve higher sales.

Oh well, I guess I'm just an analogue dinosaur in a rapidly digitalising world.

I have never driven, yet alone owned, an EV or hybrid but, when that time comes,  I hope Lotus are making a car that will match the Evora, for the Drivers (and not at Evija price levels!)

Redwing 

Exactly this  

B&C have given me a 20 plate Corsa as a courtesy car and it really is the most wretched thing. 
Designed entirely by focus group and qualitatively terrible in all the ways that it’s quantatively good (economy, noise, ease of use, comfort). No soul whatsoever, and the steering feels like it’s connected to the front wheels with a string of digital potatoes.