Sold as seen.

[Barrykearley 6,988]

So - this is a right funny one and not in any way Lotus related.

 

on 22/12/2020 - I’ve had a chap - Mr X view a triumph spitfire I had for sale. He drove it up the road - had a real good look round it - sucked through his teeth a lot - the standard stuff. It was up for £4295.  It was a cold day, I could see my own breath, and he was worried about exhaust smoke. Anyway - the car has a full mot and there’s no issues with the vehicle. It drove up the road and back without issue.

a bit of banter later - deal done at £3800. Car sold as seen.

he asks will it drive home - well I say - it’s done 10 miles in the last 5 years - if it was me I’d transport it and do some local shake down runs - as with any classic car - it may have some gremlins.

so we arrange a delivery. Simple.

it was delivered on 29/12/2020. Car was driven off the transport - and driven into his garage by him. He was happy with the car according to the delivery guy and even tipped him.

Today - I have a phonecall - the clutch isnt working - there’s fluid in the master - but no pedal feel. He wants me to collect it from Oxford and refund him. 

ummm - I don’t think so I say - that’s simply not the game. So who’s in the wrong here. 

I ain’t bothered either way frankly - the money is irrelevant to me - I’ve no issues just having the car back - but the bloke seems to be being a right prick over this and is already threatening court action 😏

so what’s the crack legal eagles ? What do folks reckon??

[910Esprit 550]

I think the wording of the advert forms the contract, so as long as you, as a private seller, have not misdescribed the car, I dont think the buyer has any case.   I'd tell him to 'do one' as I did a number of years ago with a TR6.

By misdescibed - I mean a statement such as 'has a new clutch' when that is not true

Edited January 1 by 910Esprit

[Barrykearley 6,988]

Thanks @910Esprit that’s my understanding as well.

the advert is here https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1295274 and it’s categorically not in any way misdescribed.

it does seem however he can file a claim against me via the small claims track - which I will need to dispute and defend. Ffs - this is a cheap as you like 40 odd year old classic.

[march 838]

Tell him I'll giver him £1500.00 as it's a non runner - I'll even pick it up.

[Barrykearley 6,988]

Now that’s a fecking brilliant idea @march - I’ll txt him now

Ps - your place in hell is indeed booked 🤣

[LOTUSMAN33 1,470]

This is unfortunate and clearly this individual should not own a classic car, you did him a good deal and sold as seen is just that. A regular classic owner would now welcome the chance to get his hands dirty and start improving the car he saved nearly £500 on the asking price.

I would ignore him and let him do his worst, frustrating but these people are out there 🤬

Good luck getting it sorted Barry

Dave  

[pete 1,915]

Exactly why I wouldn't buy private

[C8RKH 6,452]

Did he blame you for Brexit too @Barrykearley?

On a serious note I thought he small claims court fast track had a financial cap well below £3800. 

[pete 1,915]

https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/buyers-sellers-contracts#:~:text=When you sell a used,and approved without guarantee' receipt.&text=And you can't use,car may be unroadworthy either.

[C8RKH 6,452]

Just now, pete said:

Exactly why I wouldn't buy private

Many people have been lied, to, cheated and sold stolen/dangerous cars by Dealers who just then fold and rebrand.

It's a jungle out there Tiger!

[eeyoreish 892]

Private sales are strictly sold as seen. ‘Buyer beware’ is I believe the overall view. As long as you didn’t misdescribe it in writing there’s no legal comeback. If the guy viewed in person and drove the car too then i’d say even less so.

Its all about what a reasonable person would expect too. It’s an old car so you wouldn’t be expecting a new car, nor one that would likely be trouble free...

[RobinB5 277]

4 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

On a serious note I thought he small claims court fast track had a financial cap well below £3800. 

 

Small claims can be made up to £10000.

The clincher is that the buyer was witnessed driving the car off the transport into his garage. Surely not possible if the clutch was inoperative. That, coupled with the fact the car has a recent MOT, was test driven prior to purchase and the description was accurate all mean that he'd have a tough time claiming the money back. The fact he'd also have to pay a £185 court fees should dissuade him of further action.    

To ensure no ongoing bad blood and loss of reputation, why not offer to fix the problem for free if he buys the required parts?

[Neal H 899]

Realistically, what’s the cost of a new clutch if the fix isn’t simpler than that? He did get £500 off the asking price!

[Barrykearley 6,988]

It’s most certainly not a clutch plate problem - it’s a hydraulic issue from the discussion about the pedal feel. Probably a seal failed and the cold weather.

Im awaiting some proper advice before responding to him now - I’ve already offered £40 for a new master cylinder - next I expect I’ll be telling him to bring it back here and I shall fix it. I would guarantee that’s not going to satisfy him though sadly.

[Neal H 899]

Might just be easier to tell him that if he arranges for it’s return you’ll give him the price paid back, fix the clutch and re-advertise.

[Bazza 907 1,083]

If it was a private sale then he's got no right of redress unless it's been misdescribed as previously mentioned.

However, I wonder if he could make an argument that if you made a living (or part of a living) from buying, doing up and then selling cars then you could be seen as a part time motor trader? If that was the case then the car would have to be 'fit for purpose' which, if it broke down within a day, it probably wasn't?  

[jep 970]

My Jaguar XJ6, which I still happily own, drove approximately 0.5 miles after I bought it before leaving me stranded on the North Circular in London. Private purchase. 

I sorted the issue - fuel pump issues that cost circa £300 to resolve - old owner apologised but that was that, he was not liable for anything.

You have not misdecribed your Spitfire. If it was so 'spot-on', why was it transported? 

He has no chance in court IF you approach this calmly and politely from the off. And all in writing via e-mail. Court is a lottery and he is in the wrong but each parties attitude can skew the process.

Briefly lay out the terms of the sale to the buyer via e-mail. Confirm he is not entitled to a refund, legally or morally. Say you in no way mis-described the car and the sale was 'sold as seen' - I assume your receipt to him says this. You may wish to add that you are happy to talk to him as owning old cars should be about fun - this will look good in court should it get that far. 

Justin 

 

 

[SFO 194]

1 hour ago, Barrykearley said:

It’s most certainly not a clutch plate problem - it’s a hydraulic issue from the discussion about the pedal feel. Probably a seal failed and the cold weather.

Im awaiting some proper advice before responding to him now - I’ve already offered £40 for a new master cylinder - next I expect I’ll be telling him to bring it back here and I shall fix it. I would guarantee that’s not going to satisfy him though sadly.

definitely not try to fix for him .. the problem becomes yours and you enter slippery slope of giving him some sort of "warranty"

I would not even have offered anything, it just invites continued correspondence, and you can end up inadvertently agreeing that it is your problem

whatever you do, if you offer any amount to sort it out:

1. all offers/counteroffers must be headed "Without Prejudice" - this ensures you are not admitting liability by making a settlement offer

2. if any amount is agreed, make sure that it is "in full and final settlement of any and all claims in relation to the sale of the car"

 

[pete 1,915]

can you post up the bill of sale?

[mdw 283]

2 hours ago, Bazza 907 said:

If it was a private sale then he's got no right of redress unless it's been misdescribed as previously mentioned.

However, I wonder if he could make an argument that if you made a living (or part of a living) from buying, doing up and then selling cars then you could be seen as a part time motor trader? If that was the case then the car would have to be 'fit for purpose' which, if it broke down within a day, it probably wasn't?  

That might concern me.  What are the numbers you can sell in a year before you are a trader?    Or is it buy and sell with view to make a profit.  

   I think its buyers remorse.   He fell in love with an idea, got it , drove it down the road and realised it was not like  a new car in a pretty dress  and pounced on the clutch issue.   Probably shit himself at how vulnerable you feel next to a lorry.    As has been said  most of us would have looked at this with glee as an early  chance to get the boiler suit on and get oily hands. 

  I always use the AA letter for any cars I have sold.

[Dave Eds 286]

Bet the clutch is fine - he forgot to mention it to his missus first, and she's upset because she wanted that money for a holiday.......  

[Dan E 1,582]

I have been to small claims court 3 times and have 100% win record. You will be offered mediation first which you should take, it’s a strange process as you talk to the mediator then they put the phone down and speak to the other party and so it goes on. 
 

the deal is make sure you prep more than him. Personally I think he is trying it on I would send him a letter or email for the record and paste a load of relevant points of law. 
 

if the other guy needs a hand just give him my number 😂

[Barrykearley 6,988]

Thanks @Dan E - I’ve been there a few times before but on the claimant side. I’ve now sent a formal reply to the clown and won’t be entertaining any further communication with him now. 
Frankly I can do without this

[C8RKH 6,452]

4 hours ago, pete said:

can you post up the bill of sale?

If it's a private would you have a "bill of sale"?  It's been a whilst since I sold one of my cars (not counting px to dealer) but don't ever remember giving a receipt/bill of sale when I did.

[Mark Blanchard 1,658]

The guy can’t expect to buy a classic car for that low price and not do some work.  He sounds wet behind the ears.