Where do you stand on NHS & Emergency Service Pay Freeze/Poor Rise

[Kimbers]

Here's your starter for one!

I am a little in the know so feel I can comment and explain this a little.

Nurses/NHS workers had no rise for 5 years with inflation from 2-3% so lost around 12-15% of their wages. They then had 5% over 3 years which again was a real life cut in wages. Now they are being offered 1% and see this as an insult. Many, like my wife, are at a level where they won't get a rise at all as they aren't increasing the "Earning brackets". However what that means is those who have been there the longest won't be getting rises. Many are naturally worried about staff retention at a time Nurses are needed more than ever. I know my wife has now had enough and like many Nurses who have been in there jobs for a long time see's this as the final nail in the coffin at a time when they are needed most. Like many she won't leave the profession till the COVID emergency is over with. But after she will be leaving. 

Starting wages for the likes of Police is £20k a year where I live. They haven't had rises for a long time like NHA workers and to do their job for the early £20k's wages is rediculous. What you also don't see is that "Experience" or "Level increases" (so going from grade 1 trainee to 2 "Probationer" to 3 "Independent" and so on have also been cut so where an experienced Officer could max "levels" out in 7 years its now 9 or even 12. So they earn less for longer. Its a dangerous job with long shift work hours, stress, violence and mentally draining. During COVID Police have had to enforce laws that no one has ever seen before and react according to instructions from Home Office. Making them an object of attack and criticism.

Ambo, we all know what they have been doing but did you know that Many Fire crews have been working Ambulance during the various lockdowns? With Fire calls down hugely (People are at home so home and work fires are down and there are very few Road Collisions) Many of the Fire Crews Offered to both drive and work on ambulances. They still are!

My thoughts are obvious. These professions should be paid more in the first place so cutting their wages in real terms with pay freezes and under inflation rises makes them even worse. retention in the NHS, ambo and Police is a major issue. 

What are your thoughts?

[C8RKH]

I have two sides to my view on this @Kimbers. Partly down to the NHS being a BIG MACHINE!

I agree, that front line care workers (not just NHS Nurses) need a decent pay rise. After all, we all want to be looked after by staff who feel good about their roles, place in society and are rewarded sufficiently that they can enjoy life and their time off, so can be fresh for their work.  If it was me, these staff would be 5% pa for the next 3 years guaranteed. No strings attached. ALL of them, whether at top or bottom of their grade. I would include ancillary staff in this. So porters, cleaners (employed directly by NHS), Ambulance and First responders.

However, I have a different view when it comes to GP's, Consultants and Surgeons et al. To me, they are already well paid and many of them have the ability to significantly enhance their incomes through private work (often using NHS resources I may add).  I think 1% is fine for these staff as they have good benefits, job security etc.

[Bazza 907]

They are underpaid for what they do. End of.

[C8RKH]

8 minutes ago, Bazza 907 said:

They are underpaid for what they do. End of.

I do disagree for the categories I mentioned.

[Colin P]

2 different questions here. 
 

Is pay in the NHS right?
Should any public sector get pay rises against the general job market. 
 

Annual pay rises are inflationary, so bumping them up a bit never solves the underlying issue. You have to have the right salaries and then maintain an appropriate annual increase. I tend to agree with @C8RKHhere except, Unskilled labour which happens to be in a hospital should be rewarded in line with standard rates. I don’t subscribe to a hospital cleaner being paid more than a supermarket cleaner/worker etc, who will all be on pretty much minimum wage. 
 

The issue is the same in private sector. Long serving staff get small increments, new staff get paid more, so people have to move about to earn the “correct” pay, or stand out so much that they get “salary corrections” outside of the pay round. 
 

I also believe in a salary for a role, this is the only fair way. So with a different lens, someone who doesn’t get a pay rise because they are at the top of their band is already better off than those who do get a pay rise. I have to balance my overall pay rise budget to get to an overall figure, so clearly those lesser paid staff will (all things being equal) get a bigger rise than those paid more. Of course I have a zero budget this year. 

Ps. Pay more because we need them right now. Not sure. They should have the right pay I absolutely agree, but this is different from rewarding them for their current efforts. Get the pay right, then pay them the overtime they work and a bonus. That is how to provide short term reward, incentive. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I can certainly understand the consternation from NHS workers’ side. The Government and Public have just spent the past 12 months singing their praises as national heroes. Then this 1% pay increase gets floated, having seen great swathes of the population being paid up to £2500 per month by the Government for doing f**k all for the best part of 18 months. I would be livid.

Let’s hope the don’t go on a vaccination strike.

[scotty435]

Can’t we just give the nurses the £350 million-a-week Brexit bonus?

[pete]

Stop paying somuch to agencies for their nhs workers

[Kimbers]

9 minutes ago, pete said:

Stop paying somuch to agencies for their nhs workers

Indeed, but they need the staff because they are so short and the agencies take a cut as well so they look even more expensive than they are!

On that note Wendy could get a 25% pay rise for going agency but they are 0 hour contracts AND many agency nurses I know sometimes go for weeks without any work or just a day here or there. Her best bet is private Nursing but that isn't her, she's there for the care aspect not the money. 

[C8RKH]

12 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

Indeed, but they need the staff because they are so short and the agencies take a cut as well so they look even more expensive than they are!

On that note Wendy could get a 25% pay rise for going agency but they are 0 hour contracts AND many agency nurses I know sometimes go for weeks without any work or just a day here or there. Her best bet is private Nursing but that isn't her, she's there for the care aspect not the money. 

It's not just nurses @ Kimbers.  The real issue is the silly amounts of money that are paid to Locum's. That is where there is huge waste to be honest.

I love the NHS, but to fix the issues over pay, you need to make it a more efficient and affordable service. And unfortunately those with their snouts deep into the golden snout, like GP's, Consultants etc will never allow the efficiencies as it keeps them all in a very nice lifestyle.  Of course we need to get rid of the useless managers, and management consultants too.  Then, there will probably be enough in the kitty to actually make the jobs financially rewarding for all in the NHS.

 

[Barrykearley]

Has anyone actually looked at nurses pay banding. It’s not hidden from anyone - least of all those whom chose it as a career path.

if you don’t like the pay - don’t train to be a nurse. 

Edited March 5 by Barrykearley

[scotty435]

10 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

Has anyone actually looked at nurses pay banding. It’s not hidden from anyone - least of all those whom chose it as a career path.

if you don’t like the pay - don’t train to be a nurse. 

Some chose to take the career path many years ago and obviously did look at the pay band and 30 years ago it looked different than it does today but for sure they looked at other things as well, like how can I help people in need. Not one of your best replies Barry.

[Barrykearley]

I get fed up of listening to unions and public sector workers bitching and moaning about their guaranteed secure jobs. If they don’t like it - get out and do something else. 

[910Esprit]

The idea of  staying in a job for 30 years with job security, incremental rises, pensions, career progression, retirement ages, holiday pay etc is a distant dream for the millions of self employed and low paid workers, who ultimately fund the public sector.  

Maybe I'm a little bitter cos I'm currently being made redundant, but that's not on the news is it?

[Barrykearley]

Absolutely @910Esprit - that’s spot on. 
 

doesn’t fit with the leftie modern day moaning whinging narrative. By Christ had they given them 20% pay rise they would have been moaning it’s not enough and what about the bin men. At some point the cold hard reality will sink in.

And as for teachers.... well ain’t they hard done by 😳

[scotty435]

4 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

I get fed up of listening to unions and public sector workers bitching and moaning about their guaranteed secure jobs. If they don’t like it - get out and do something else. 

Sadly a lot decide it’s a profession they can not deal with for numerous reason not just financial, most mental health and they do leave and do something else. That’s way we depend on a workforce from the European Union and further afield something else i am sure you do you not agree with. 

[Colin P]

Might help

Average UK pay = £29k

Minimum wage c£15k

Nurse newly qualified = £24k 

2-4 years £26-30k

7 years £31-38k

 

 

 

[Barrykearley]

17 minutes ago, scotty435 said:

That’s way we depend on a workforce from the European Union and further afield something else i am sure you do you not agree with. 

We depend on migrant workers due to our own governments and opposition parties complete laziness. Successive governments of all colours find it far simpler to import labour than to train our own people. Now is a great time - 5% unemployed and no doubt the labour benches will soon be crying about the lost opportunities for those most vulnerable kids leaving school. Maybe it’s time we invested in the uk people.

keep reading the tosh spouted in the Guardian 

[scotty435]

9 minutes ago, Colin P said:

Might help

Average UK pay = £29k

Minimum wage c£15k

Nurse newly qualified = £24k 

2-4 years £26-30k

7 years £31-38k

 

 

 

Sure we did not class them as Average when the nation clapped for them earlier last year at the start of the pandemic and now after a year of what they have had to go through in what can only be described as probably being worst profession to be in. So does your comment help probably not. Be nice if some people show some compassion.

[Barrykearley]

Not sure I remember the uk armed forces being given this focus by the Labour Party the last time they lied them into battle 🤔

[Colin P]

3 hours ago, scotty435 said:

So does your comment help probably not. Be nice if some people show some compassion.

My comment merely quoted facts, no opinion. Views on here as to whether or not nhs wages are fair can only be informed if the actual wages and comparisons are available. Therefore the post should help with perspective.

Exactly where did I say they were average? It’s a benchmark. I merely quoted minimum wage, average wage and nhs wage from which people can make their own judgement as where the wages sit.

Compassion is not relevant in setting a wage. The question of correct salary is NOT short term, or have they been paid enough over the last year because it’s been really shit, but is a question of “in normal circumstances” are they paid enough. Compassion therefore doesn’t come into it.

That is not to say that their wage is fair or not. This question is not related in any way to COVID or the last 12 months. COVID and fair pay discussions should not be conjoined. 

Please do not interpret a mere statement of facts as a suggestion that nurses are “average” I quite clearly have not made that assertion and wouldn’t seeing as I don’t see that as the case. But a measure of a fair wage must always be taken in context of an “average” wage as a benchmark. 

So please read a post properly, don’t assume, and be sure of your facts before you tell someone that they have no compassion. 
 

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, scotty435 said:

Be nice if some people show some compassion

It's a job and a career that they have chosen to do, knowing the rewards. Let's not start to get silly over this.

Do we respect them? Yes.  Do we rely upon them? Yes. Do we appreciate them? Yes.  No one is doubting this, not even Colin, so your comment re "show some compassion" is crass in my very humble opinion.

As I said before. The NHS is a money pit. It does not need to be a money pit. Sort out the issues. The excess. The efficiency. Then we can afford to pay a better wage.  I do believe, as per my earlier post, they deserve more pay for what they do. But that does not mean everyone in the NHS deserves more.

[MPx]

I agree with Colin's posts - I don't see it as a compassion thing and don't think he posted anything about that.  Level of pay should be about value we put on the job relative to the value we put on other jobs tempered by the availability/willingness of people to do it.  That balance has currently been struck at wherever the payscales currently are.  Having a hard year is, IMO, no reason to change a payscale.  Reasons to change payscales are difficulties in recruitment/retention, additional demands meaning greater skills required which are harder to attain, and such like (many of which may well be the case for front line medical staff - but that's not what most are arguing).   

No, the hard year/exceptional effort reward should be a bonus not raised pay.  It represents a one off cost to the public purse - like so many other one off costs that this pandemic has brought but does not put us in hock for ever more through inflationary higher annual wage bills and pensions - so in future years not paying the higher wage when they aren't having as exceptional a year.  I say give them all a bonus (suggest maybe £5k or 4 after tax) as a meaningful thank you for above and beyond but address payscale reviews in the round not as a knee jerk.

[mayevora]

MP - 2010 Basic Salary - £65738

MP - 2018 Basic Salary - £77379

MP’s - 17.7% increase 

NHS - 3.46% increase (same period)

 

Speaks volumes. 🤔

[mdw]

14 hours ago, Kimbers said:

On that note Wendy could get a 25% pay rise for going agency but they are 0 hour contracts AND many agency nurses I know sometimes go for weeks without any work or just a day here or there.

That is the risk of self employment isnt it.    I have only ever been SE and have had week when I earnt 0 and some when I did more than alright.   Doesnt suit everybody.