free hit
counters
Where do you stand on NHS & Emergency Service Pay Freeze/Poor Rise - Page 2 - General Chat - The Lotus Forums #ForTheOwners Jump to content


Where do you stand on NHS & Emergency Service Pay Freeze/Poor Rise


Where do you stand on the whole 1% pay rise for Nurses and Freeze for Police, Ambo and Fire  

30 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, mayevora said:

Speaks volumes. 🤔

It does of course...but with 650 MPs vs 669,000 nurses, the actual costs are incomparable.  Any amount paid to MPs (while morally bankrupt) will not feature in any macro national cost analysis (eg 650 x£10,000 = £6.5m which is small change in the national accounts) whereas any amount paid to nurses will appear huge when multiplied by 2/3rds of a million - (eg just a £1500 rise = another £billion cost to the country) - and may well be simply unaffordable.

Loving Lionel and Eleanor......missing Charlie and Sonny

Link to post
Share on other sites

Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
  • Replies 45
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I have two sides to my view on this @Kimbers. Partly down to the NHS being a BIG MACHINE! I agree, that front line care workers (not just NHS Nurses) need a decent pay rise. After all, we all wan

I agree with Colin's posts - I don't see it as a compassion thing and don't think he posted anything about that.  Level of pay should be about value we put on the job relative to the value we put on o

The idea of  staying in a job for 30 years with job security, incremental rises, pensions, career progression, retirement ages, holiday pay etc is a distant dream for the millions of self employed and

1 hour ago, MPx said:

but with 650 MPs vs 669,000 nurses, the actual costs are incomparable.  

Of course you are correct Mike - It will never come close to scratching the surface.

This is a bit off topic (but is it?) I certainly can’t remember any talks of MP pay freezes in the House or even just 1% rises, and it’s funny that Politician pay rises/increases always seem to be the one subject that all sides of the House, collectively are nearly always in agreement about. 

  • Like 1

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM

I do wonder where people get their "facts" from and do assume that often what is spouted is their perfeption. Straight from the commons library website:

Of every 1,000 NHS staff in England,

862 are British      (86%)

55 from the EU     (5.5%)

52 Asian                (5.2%)

22 African             (2.2%)

9 from elsewhere (0.9%)

Over a 3rd of non British nationals in the NHS are employed by the NHS in London.

In Scotland, 85% are white British. Interestingly they do not collate statistics for British non-whites!  Hmmmm. Does that mean there aren't any? Of course not....

 

So whilst there is a circa 14/16% of non British nationals in the NHS I do think it is a bit rich to say that the NHS is dependent on overseas workers. It is actually far more dependent on British national workers.

In 2018 nurses negotiated  3 year pay deal that would see salaries increase by 6.5% and 29% with some of the biggest increases targeted at the lowest paid with Josie Irwin of the Royal College of Nursing saying the deal would help to make the nursing profession more attractive to future nurses and that we "have taken a significant step on the journey towards fairer pay for the NHS staff".  So whilst 1% this year is not great, it's 1% more than millions of other workers who go to work each day worrying if they will still have a job at the end of the day.

 

  • Thanks 2

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM

@C8RKH maybe you should put down the copy of the daily mail and pick up the guardian. There you will find the truth portrayed in fantastic left wing technicolour. 110% of all people employed in front line health care are migrant workers from the fantastic eu. They bring a wealth of expertise and fantastic multiculturalism - just don’t read anything reported in Swedish newspapers.

sadly many would rather we asset strip developing countries of their trained and experienced health care professionals - I’d say that’s massively selfish of our government to do.

oh and it’s not compassion that’s required - more empathy wouldn’t go amiss for the hundreds of thousands of people plunged into the depths of uncertainty and joblessness due to the current situation.

  • Like 2

Only here once

Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts FWIW

Yes I do have a certain amount of sympathy with front line NHS workers but I’m sick & tired of listening to just about every sector of the public purse trying to claim how they deserve special treatment.

I agree that some in the NHS deserve an increase more than others. Whilst nurses etc have worked under pressure for the past 12 months there are some, particularly GP’s, who have had a relatively easy ride. GP practices have been closed and assessments given by phone appointments which has resulted in a much more relaxed workload as patients decide that it’s not worth taking to a GP who can’t see exactly what your problem is.

From the Govts perspective, I think it’ may well be a negotiating tactic. Offer them 2.5% and the reaction would have been exactly the same, so offer 1% in the knowledge that the offer will have to be increased. Let things come to a head and then negotiate & make the offer you intended all along. Most “workers” are then happy that they’ve managed to take action which results in an increased offer and the govt are happy that the end pay increase is what they intended all along but would have come under the same pressure had they made that offer in the first place.

I see the latest threat from the unions is that many nurses are prepared to quit in protest. Well, call me a mean b’stard if you want but, when any of my employees tried to use their resignation as blackmail to generate leverage for a pay rise they were always surprised when their resignation was accepted and found themselves having to look for another job through their own idiotic actions. The unions and militant NHS members may need to be careful what they wish for!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM
1 hour ago, PaulCP said:

Well, call me a mean b’stard if you want but, when any of my employees tried to use their resignation as blackmail to generate leverage for a pay rise they were always surprised when their resignation was accepted and found themselves having to look for another job through their own idiotic actions.

Oh how I laughed Paul. Many a time someone has come to me with a "sob story" that they are under paid and worth so much more and if I did not watch out they would leave.  I just said well if that is your decision then I accept your resignation. That was usually followed with a "oh, I wasn't being serious" response. From them!................  If someone deserves a pay rise, and I can make it happen, I'll do it for them. But I won't be pushed over a barrel and have someone attempt to "roger" me.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I've worked for the same company for 38 years and all that time I've had numerous assesments with different managers and never once been offered a pay rise other than the usuall 1/2% annual increase and nobody else has either.

So always have to hand my notice in and be prepared to leve is that a progressive company I think not.

Last time of asking oh sorry we really value your years of experience but sorry so handed my notice in to work for our sister company and oh well hold on.

Next thing we really value your work and we will match your offer and some and that turned into 24.5% pay rise yes that's right 24.5% from oh sorry about 2 weeks earlier but that's the way it is at our place always has been always will be.

So consequently we have lost some good engineers over the years that's cost the company dearly and untill that happens I'm afrade the management never take any notice never.

And now we've actually been told before the yearly assesments that we cannot talk about any sort of pay rise as this is not a salary review.

Shame is not one manager can actually do my job not one they turn up on site and honestly stand in bewilderment.

Shame 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM
9 hours ago, philcool said:

Next thing we really value your work and we will match your offer and some and that turned into 24.5% pay rise yes that's right 24.5% from oh sorry about 2 weeks earlier but that's the way it is at our place always has been always will be.

I’ve been in this position a couple of times - the biggest mistake was staying with the company rather than moving on. If they can’t pay you when you ask - then you should never look back.

Only here once

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

I’ve been in this position a couple of times - the biggest mistake was staying with the company rather than moving on. If they can’t pay you when you ask - then you should never look back.

Yes bit late now have had some good times now highest paid with the best van and they've never skimped on tools and did have a final salery pension till last year but managed to get 12% pension out of them instead now so not all bad 

Link to post
Share on other sites

In an ideal world, people would be paid what it would cost to replace them.  So, if people leave and you can't recruit replacements, then you need to increase the pay grades.  Problem with the NHS is that it has such a massive share of the job market and so distorts it.  There is the option of leaving the nursing profession but that would probably lead to going to a lower wage for a while until you gain experience of even no wage was you study for new qualifications but if there is a shortage of recruits, then wages will need to go up.  If not, they won't.

S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I seem to remember that the NHS is one of the top ten biggest employers in the world. 

1.3m employees, 1.16m are full time. 

That's about 5% of the UK workforce.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Very complex topic, but for me a relatively simple answer. Are NHS workers paid fairly? I don’t have a clue.

Ask people whether they think they should be paid more and the vast majority of them will answer “yes”. But are they paid fairly? Around a year ago a huge number of people became overnight self-proclaimed experts in immunology and virus control. They knew as much or more than the experts in this field. Now we have a great many experts in the area of appropriate salary-setting.

I am not one of these experts, so I consider myself in no position to cast judgement. I do know that what you might want to pay people isn’t always possible, and I strongly believe that the days of employers paying workers as little as they can possibly get away with, and the plucky unions fighting the cause of those workers to get what they “rightly deserve” are long gone. It is quite easy to compare your situation to that of others to suit your argument. A supervisor at a fish processing plant in Aberdeen makes more than a Nurse? Are you trying to tell me that a Nurse who cares for and maintains human life is worth less than someone who processes fish to put in our bellies? It’s outrageous! But there are plenty of other comparators you knowingly ignore in such situations as they don’t support your argument. Trade Unions are the employees of the employees, and as such have to demonstrate their value proposition too. It is in their interest for there to be bitter and very public negotiation around this topic, and to perpetuate the “them and us” model. Without this type of conflict, they have little to offer their employers. If an employer is forced into such a paradigm where they have to negotiate with a union, and they know that the organisation can afford X, but the unions will demand 2X, then they would have to be pretty stupid to offer the X they want to as their starting position. They agree on a final figure and the union reminds everyone how essential they were in this process.

The media (particularly the print media) aren’t here to feed us with the facts or truth – they are commercial enterprises that exist to sell us their stories. When they aren’t feeding the insipid human need to be shocked / outraged / disgusted at the behaviour of other human beings, they are building their brand and reassuring readers that “hey – we think like you do”. They have put the NHS workers on a massive pedestal through the pandemic.

Personally I think the NHS have stepped up superbly. But in this circumstance…. who else would we have expected to? Similarly the Police have been pressed to enforce unpopular social behaviour control regimes. They have done so. They have also done a great job IMHO. But in this circumstance….. who else would we have expected to do this? And if we suddenly find ourselves at war I’d expect the armed forces to step up. Who else would we expect to do so?

You can apply similar logic to other frontline workers like teachers, but also copious hidden ones. Have people been knocking their pans in within pharma companies to develop effective vaccines? Yep. Have people been knocking their pans in within supply chains to ensure that everyone favourite toilet roll actually gets to the supermarket. That food and medicines still reach us. That we are still able to buy things that entertain us during lockdown. Yes. There are countless examples where people have continued working in environments where – despite additional controls being employed – they are under increased risk of infection.

The media have singled out the NHS – partly cos it is fair, but also because it suits their rhetoric. As highlighted by others on here – the NHS accounts for a significant percentage of the UK workforce, so many of us have direct or more distant family members under their employment. Awesome hook.  “We think like all of you do”.

Within the private sector some of the people who have remained at their place of work have received 1-off bonuses to recognise their efforts. I would advocate the same should occur for public sector workers. Like the NHS. But I’d struggle to argue that they are the only deserving group.

As others have stated, I’d keep the topic of salary separate from the current pandemic as one is “forever”, and the other is (hopefully) a temporary blip.

PS – if they do go on strike, lets see how quickly the media turn on them once the health of the nation suffers.

Edited by mik
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/03/2021 at 18:21, Colin P said:

Might help

Average UK pay = £29k

Minimum wage c£15k

Nurse newly qualified = £24k 

2-4 years £26-30k

7 years £31-38k

 

Col, you have mixed up your bandings here. A Staff nurse newly qualified is £24907 you are correct however a Staff Nurse Band 5 (qualified nurse) salary rises' stop at 7 years experience at £30615. Your £31-38k figure is deceptive as that is for a band 6 "Specialised Nurse" or "Senior Nurse" these are not a continuation of a Staff Nurses pay, they are promotions and you have to apply and get that position, and there are very few. A Sister on a ward for example manages the shift and is only junior to a Matron. She is band 6 so there aren't many positions or chances to move higher up. My wife, incidently, is a Specialised Nurse. 

So actually, you deal with life and death (mostly death at present), 13 hour shifts (12 hours paid 30 mins to hand over at the beginning and end of the shift you don't get paid for), a very dirty job I wouldn't do (cleaning wounds, arses, CPR, bed washes etc etc) and the maximum wage us £30615.

Band 7, Nursing practitioner, matron etc is actually a Masters Degree role only and requires years more intensive study and dedication. Their Salary starts at £38817. But considering the qualifications needed its very poor pay and long hours. A Nursing Practitioner will often do the job of a Doctor in a local GP surgery however they get around £70,000 a year less!!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM

Thanks @Kimbers As I said the actual salaries are important context. £30k cap, which I doubt a lot are not on, doesn’t exactly sound a lot now does it?

there I finally stated an opinion :X

  • Like 1

A Lotus is for driving, pork is for breakfast.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/03/2021 at 22:18, C8RKH said:

It's a job and a career that they have chosen to do, knowing the rewards. Let's not start to get silly over this.

 

No It's not. When my wife and many of the experienced nurses joined they had cost of living rises and different bandings that allowed them to keep on earning a decent whack. That all changed around 10 years ago with the new bandings restricting earnings were brought in and their pension was forced through from final salary to new style. This included a 30% increase in contributions for 25% lower Pension. Up until then many Nurses joined overlooking pay and conditions, on the fact that they had good pensions at the end.

They have, since then seen a 15% pay decrease in real terms when many in the private sector were getting rises and all this for a job you couldn't pay me twice as much to do.

 

1 hour ago, Colin P said:

Thanks @Kimbers As I said the actual salaries are important context. £30k cap, which I doubt a lot are not on, doesn’t exactly sound a lot now does it?

there I finally stated an opinion :X

It isn't mate. There aren't many jobs out there in the private sector where you are told "Ok you can't earn any more". Plus when the govt says it is giving pay rises to nurses this never includes increasing the bandings so someone like my wife doesn't actually get the rise because shes at the top of her banding.

BTW, did I mention that Nurses here have to pay for parking at £700 a year just to work? 

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM

@kimbers, we can all find facts and figures to support various arguments.  Also, we need to take the "emotional heartstrings" out of this - sick of hearing stuff like show some compassion. They are all saints. etc. At the end of the day we all appreciate the job and commitment of nurses, that is not what is being questioned at all.

Oh, and by the way, plenty of other people need to pay for parking at their place of work. So, why is this relevant just because they do job A?  Again, trying to tug at the heartstrings.

Most people have seen real world wage deflation in the past 10-15 years. Nurses are not, in this regard, a special case and singled out against anyone else.

Stop it!

 

You yourself will know that the Nurses pension, whilst not as good as it maybe once was, is still a hell of a lot better than many "private" arrangements. It is also fully Government backed so about as safe as you can get. Again, unlike most "private" arrangements.

Shit, things change during a career and what was a "great" career choice 10, 20 30 years ago may not be one now - in fact many of those career choices from 20 to 30 years ago have disappeared altogether in the private sector. So the people following those careers have had to re-train and go and do something else.

Again, if the career conditions change and you don't like it, change career! It really is that simple.

Also @Kimbers, you're wrong if you truly believe there are not other careers, companies where you are told "OK you can't earn any more". What total bullshit. I was a manager 27 years ago and had people working for me who were on a "red line" list. This meant that their salary was not allowed to increase DESPITE the job they did and even whether they got a promotion or not.  27 YEARS AGO KIMBERS!   Many companies have salary "bands" that are rigid and so when you get to the top of the banding, you're at the top of the banding. Tough shit.

 

I find it funny how the Topic is about "NHS and Emergency Service pay freeze" and yet the conversation is almost entirely about nurses and the NHS. Many of the responses are "emotional" and I guess, to show support for Nurses (I don't think any of us have not shown support for them), as opposed to the addressing the wider issue. And when we have tried to address the wider topic title, we keep getting emotional heart string pulls back to Nurses.

 

I don't think as it stands this topic is really going anywhere any more, other than round in circles, when it comes to Nurses pay.

So to address the full scope of the topic:

 

1. Firefighters - where I stand is the 0/1% is fair based upon the wider context of the jobs market/jobs in the UK

2. Police - see "Firefighters"

3. Ambulance/Medical First Responders - I would suggest inflation plus 1%

4. Nurses - I would suggest inflation plus 1%

5. GPs/Surgeons/Medical Consultants - it is fair based upon the wider context of the jobs market/jobs in the UK and their current packages/total earnings

 

 

  • Like 1

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

 

5. GPs/Surgeons/Medical Consultants - it is fair based upon the wider context of the jobs market/jobs in the UK and their current packages/total earnings

 

 

Andy, you may have covered this above under “their current package/total earnings” but let’s not forget that many in this sector also bring in shed loads of income working as private consultants in addition to their NHS salaries.

I was recently told by one such NHS consultant who also has a private practice “I can put you on the NHS waiting list but expect to wait over 12months, alternatively I can do it next week for £xxx’s”

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM

Yes in my original posting Paul..

  • Like 1

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for a bit of comparison.

I got my latest Council Tax bill for the upcoming financial year.

+6.1% on last year!
In addition to this, they have closed our library and cut the associated services.

This is on top of a 4.0% increase last year!

In fact I have just found the old bill for 2013/14 and the new bill will be 42% higher over an 8 year period. During that same period, inflation was about 19%. I wish my employer was paying me 42% more than I was getting 8 years ago and for doing less work.

Not only is the Council screwing over the existing residents, but they’re falling over themselves to grant planning applications for thousands of new homes on green field sites, all of which will be adding Council Tax to their coffers when sold.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone has to pay to keep their gold plated defined benefit pension schemes afloat.

Given that most defined benefit schemes have been running in deficit due to low investment returns employer top up payments and increased employee contributions have become the norm in the private sector along with, in some cases, reduced benefits. In the public sector the only funding is the tax payer.

It is about time all councils were compelled to show the level of council tax which goes towards their pension schemes every year when they declare the new council tax hikes

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Gold FFM
12 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Just for a bit of comparison.

I got my latest Council Tax bill for the upcoming financial year.

+6.1% on last year!
In addition to this, they have closed our library and cut the associated services.

This is on top of a 4.0% increase last year!

In fact I have just found the old bill for 2013/14 and the new bill will be 42% higher over an 8 year period. During that same period, inflation was about 19%. I wish my employer was paying me 42% more than I was getting 8 years ago and for doing less work.

Not only is the Council screwing over the existing residents, but they’re falling over themselves to grant planning applications for thousands of new homes on green field sites, all of which will be adding Council Tax to their coffers when sold.

Pah. You should live in Scotland bud. NO council tax hike up here for another year and a bumper giveaway from the Government as elections are in 2 months. Pure dead brill and all thanks to an increase in subsidy through Mr. Barnetts formula!  Back of the next. Get in there.

 

Oh, and re the new houses, you are forgetting the very important fact that the developers often pay "millions" up front in Development Fees to the local Authorities. They get two bites at the cherry mate.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...