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410 sport engine vs 430 cup.. what’s different?


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12 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Yup. But then that's down to each person deciding for themselves and no one is forcing you to buy.

Obviously they are free to do whatever they want, the same way I'm free to say that 1600 eur for 20bhp is beyond ridiculous 

Also, where do they say you need headers, decat/sports cat and CAI kit? That is for stage 2 

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It's easy to make big power for a short about of time...  Komo-tec have proven that their way of tuning is safe and have a lot of cars out there now with their kits. My car has had the 460 k

and here is the video of the dyno run after Vone mapping.  Wonder he's on here too (being UK registered!) WITH 2bular headers, 380 tit back box, no cat, OEM map: 456hp / 455Nm (no pull before the

I've always figured about £100 per bhp. Doesn't seem excessive if you consider results rather than perceived work. I reckon an exhaust would cost you more and probably deliver less bhp, thou

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17 minutes ago, Seriouslylotus said:

I would love to see the engine bay temps on a car that retains the original cats putting out 450 + bhp.

Not to mention the life spam of the catalysts

 

Yup. But who are we to doubt? Hate to think what those two red hot pre-cats will be doing to the engine when tuned to that level. At what temp does carbon fibre/plastic hatch covers start to melt?  :rofl:

11 hours ago, cuprapw said:

Obviously they are free to do whatever they want, the same way I'm free to say that 1600 eur for 20bhp is beyond ridiculous 

And yet from Vone to get the extra 25bhp (and no extra torque) of the stage 2 you need headers, sports cat and carbon air filter - so around £3200 on top of the tune cost for an extra 25bhp. As you say, beyond ridiculous :whistle:

I find it hard to believe, but happy to be proven wrong (as it means it should work on my Evora 410) that you get a full extra 60bhp, reliably, with no changes other than a map.  Seems to be the only supplier that claims such an upgrade. 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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I've always figured about £100 per bhp.

Doesn't seem excessive if you consider results rather than perceived work.

I reckon an exhaust would cost you more and probably deliver less bhp, though I concede there are other benefits to a pipe swap. Software certainly at the lower end has traditionally been a cheap upgrade to blown cars. Normally aspirated has often needed far deeper pockets. Regardless, the result is +20. If it's perceived poor value, what other options are available for less money?

 

For comparison

Using Seriously lotus current prices

Exige 430 to 475. £124 per bhp

Exige 350 to 460. £92 per bhp

Exige 350 to 430. £67 per bhp

Average £94.

 

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14 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Yup. But who are we to doubt? Hate to think what those two red hot pre-cats will be doing to the engine when tuned to that level. At what temp does carbon fibre/plastic hatch covers start to melt?  :rofl:

And yet from Vone to get the extra 25bhp (and no extra torque) of the stage 2 you need headers, sports cat and carbon air filter - so around £3200 on top of the tune cost for an extra 25bhp. As you say, beyond ridiculous :whistle:

I find it hard to believe, but happy to be proven wrong (as it means it should work on my Evora 410) that you get a full extra 60bhp, reliably, with no changes other than a map.  Seems to be the only supplier that claims such an upgrade. 

Of course that is the extra you have to spend if you want those extra 25bhp to get the most of the engine without getting into more important modifications but at least the entry level is (supposedly) 60bph for 900 eur ...or even .. let's be pessimistic... 40bhp for 900 Eur, the entry level of komo-tech is 20bhp for 1600 Eur 

That is what Vone claims, it would be great to get feedback from someone with that remap

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Are you not surprised at the size of the improvements with nothing more than a re-map given that others have been "tuning" this engine for years and are not claiming such gains WITHOUT additional mods being required?  You should be reassured that their gains are at least proven to be reliable with no long term affects on the engines reported.

As you say, until a few owners come along who have had the tune done, to confirm it's reliability and the improvements, then we don't have too much to go on.

But also, as I said before, if I could get to 460bhp for £1k, safely and reliably, I'd be in. But I do have serious doubts re the stock cats baking the engine, and being baked by the engine back. I just do not see it ending well and the temperatures must be huge. A recipe for disaster for sure in a plastic car.

 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Are you not surprised at the size of the improvements with nothing more than a re-map given that others have been "tuning" this engine for years and are not claiming such gains WITHOUT additional mods being required?  You should be reassured that their gains are at least proven to be reliable with no long term affects on the engines reported.

As you say, until a few owners come along who have had the tune done, to confirm it's reliability and the improvements, then we don't have too much to go on.

But also, as I said before, if I could get to 460bhp for £1k, safely and reliably, I'd be in. But I do have serious doubts re the stock cats baking the engine, and being baked by the engine back. I just do not see it ending well and the temperatures must be huge. A recipe for disaster for sure in a plastic car.

 

Well.... the main problem is that there's mainly just one tuner doing re-maps, Komo-tech

Also, I'm just talking about the 410 engine

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Plus Jubu in France I believe and BOE in the US. All have been working on this engine for some time and none are "just a map".

Also ES Motorsports in the UK and I think SimplySportsCars in Australia have all done tuning work. Hanger 111 uses the KomoTec kits as does Seriously lotus in the UK.

Jubu I believe is €6k to take the 410 to 450 and needs new headers etc.

BOE requires a CAI and headers to get to 450 etc.

So very much what I am trying to evidence is that Vone are doing something very different to the "established" tuners that do have implementations out there and owners using the system. Hence being keen to see where this has been done and hear from owners.

 

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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11 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Plus Jubu in France I believe and BOE in the US. All have been working on this engine for some time and none are "just a map".

Also ES Motorsports in the UK and I think SimplySportsCars in Australia have all done tuning work. Hanger 111 uses the KomoTec kits as does Seriously lotus in the UK.

Jubu I believe is €6k to take the 410 to 450 and needs new headers etc.

BOE requires a CAI and headers to get to 450 etc.

So very much what I am trying to evidence is that Vone are doing something very different to the "established" tuners that do have implementations out there and owners using the system. Hence being keen to see where this has been done and hear from owners.

 

 

SimplySportsCars does not have any power phase for 410/430's supercharger. They directly go for the TVS 1900 and in their charge cooled version unless I'm missing something I see nothing related to headers or decat/sports catalyst, just the CAI kit,  https://www.simplysportscars.com/shop/home/103352-charge-cooled-tvs1900-supercharger-kit-lotus-exige-v6 claiming 475bhp

In the video they even say that if you want more than those 475 bhp at the crank you will need aftermarket headers and exhaust, how is it possible that SimplySportCars gets 475bhp maintaining stock headers and exhaust ?

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9 hours ago, cuprapw said:

how is it possible that SimplySportCars gets 475bhp maintaining stock headers and exhaust ?

Not saying it is not possible. Questioning whether it is advisable for longevity/reliability.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this. If you are happy with a map only to those sorts of powers then do it. Spend your money. Enjoy. Be happy.

I won't be doing it as I don't believe it will deliver longevity for the engine. So I'll not spend my money on a map only to those powers. Enjoy. And be happy.

I don't think, from the sound of the conversation, that either of us have the technical or engineering skills and knowledge to be experts. So you pay your money and take your chances if that is what you want to do. Me, I'll be more conservative and if I upgrade I will go for a package to include headers, map, sports cat as I believe the longevity of that approach has been proven.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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9 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Not saying it is not possible. Questioning whether it is advisable for longevity/reliability.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this. If you are happy with a map only to those sorts of powers then do it. Spend your money. Enjoy. Be happy.

I won't be doing it as I don't believe it will deliver longevity for the engine. So I'll not spend my money on a map only to those powers. Enjoy. And be happy.

I don't think, from the sound of the conversation, that either of us have the technical or engineering skills and knowledge to be experts. So you pay your money and take your chances if that is what you want to do. Me, I'll be more conservative and if I upgrade I will go for a package to include headers, map, sports cat as I believe the longevity of that approach has been proven.

I 100% agree we lack that those skills. My point is that the main argument of, komo-tech does X and there is no other way to get 460-470bhp reliably is not valid when Simply sport cars (well known in the field) are getting those 475cv differently (stock Cat and Headers)

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On 14/03/2021 at 20:59, Kristof Thys said:

A member on G111 forum has been to Vone (they are Lotus specialist for many years... yes, they exist next to KT.  Seems like my comments are not too much appreciated here!!) with his 430 cup, Komotec air intake, 2bular manifolds, no cat.: 504hp, 534Nm.

(you'll need to register: http://garage111.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9818&start=810)

and here is the video of the dyno run after Vone mapping.  Wonder he's on here too (being UK registered!)

WITH 2bular headers, 380 tit back box, no cat, OEM map: 456hp / 455Nm (no pull before the hardware modifs, but another bone stock 430 made 422hp / 453Nm)

AFTER remap, same hardware of course: 504hp / 534Nm

all courtesy of Lebalayeur and kudo's to him for understanding that most aftermarket CAI's out there don't care too much about turbulent air.  He modified his Komotec air box.  Just like Imran in the end added an air strengthener to his design... (wonder where that idea came from 😉👍)

 

 

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On 20/03/2021 at 09:19, Kristof Thys said:

and here is the video of the dyno run after Vone mapping.  Wonder he's on here too (being UK registered!)

WITH 2bular headers, 380 tit back box, no cat, OEM map: 456hp / 455Nm (no pull before the hardware modifs, but another bone stock 430 made 422hp / 453Nm)

AFTER remap, same hardware of course: 504hp / 534Nm

all courtesy of Lebalayeur and kudo's to him for understanding that most aftermarket CAI's out there don't care too much about turbulent air.  He modified his Komotec air box.  Just like Imran in the end added an air strengthener to his design... (wonder where that idea came from 😉👍)

 

 

What a beast, and that sound!!!!

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at 504hp and 534Nm are there no concerns re the gearbox?  Isn't that way above the previously thought "safe" limit for the box?

 

Sounds epic, and a fantastic result though.

On 18/03/2021 at 17:58, cuprapw said:

100% agree we lack that those skills. My point is that the main argument of, komo-tech does X and there is no other way to get 460-470bhp reliably is not valid when Simply sport cars (well known in the field) are getting those 475cv differently (stock Cat and Headers)

Nobody including me is saying "there is no other way" - what we are saying is that there are very limited ways to get there reliably and safely.  Two different things.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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23 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

at 504hp and 534Nm are there no concerns re the gearbox?  Isn't that way above the previously thought "safe" limit for the box?

 

Sounds epic, and a fantastic result though.

Nobody including me is saying "there is no other way" - what we are saying is that there are very limited ways to get there reliably and safely.  Two different things.

SSC is really well know on the field, not sure why that stage they sell including a whole new supercharger  would be unreliable

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1 hour ago, cuprapw said:

SSC is really well know on the field, not sure why that stage they sell including a whole new supercharger  would be unreliable

OK slow down.

Firstly, SCC are using a larger supercharger are they not? So you've gone from not being happy re KT prices to an equally expensive kit with regards to BHP increases per pound - the SCC kit is around £7k plus fitting from what I can see.

I can also see they use the stock headers and the stock cats that sit on the engine block.

Personally, what I am saying is that I think that is a recipe for disaster long term and it is not the way I would go.  But as I said before, if you want to go that way then Hoffmans are their dealer in the Uk and they know what they are doing. I personally would not do without changing the headers to get rid of those two cats that bake the engine.

Your car. Your money. Your choice.  I never said it would be unreliable (I don't think), but I did say that I did not think it would be good for the engine long term re the heat from the cats.

Why do i say that, well, even on my NA Evora, when I fitted decent headers with a sports cat, and got rid of the two cats baking the engine, there was a significant reduction in engine heat and engine bay heat.  God knows what the temps will be like with that extra stuff and the extra heat in there.

Also, with a bigger supercharger you're also adding more weight high up, lifting the centre of gravity and altering the weigh distribution.

Again, not necessarily bad, but not ideal.

Happy tuning.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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We are mixing things here

What I read before is that 450-470 would be so insane that reliability will be affected, but there's a SSC kit with a bigger supercharger making 470cv keeping the stock headers and cat, that kit is expensive...yes... it is a new supercharger plus charge cooling, it has to be expensive. As I said they keep stock headers and cat, My point is that I don't think SSC sells an unreliable kit for 15K GBP

In my case upgrading to the TVS1900 makes no sense as the supercharger in the 410's (TVS17XX I can't remember) has more capacity than 350's, I can get those 470 "easily" without changing the supercharger and apparently the internals limit of the V6 engine is 500cv so better play same with 25-30 bhp less than that

I agree that the stock headers for the V6 engine are not the most efficient, but I also read somewhere that there are some differences in the pipes diameter between 350s and 410s

and yeah Happy tuning :)

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23 minutes ago, cuprapw said:

hat I read before is that 450-470 would be so insane that reliability will be affected

Do you work for the Sun or the Express? No one other than you has said this! Indeed, KT offer 475 and I have no problem with that kit going into my car.

What has been said is that those two pre-cats push a lot of heat onto the engine and in to the engine bay. Heat is the enemy of performance. So what it boils down to is me simply saying I would not push the power to these levels and keep those pre-cats and headers. That's it. It's my view that it is not healthy or good for long term reliability.

If you disagree, then fine. Fill your boots. The pipes are different sizes yes but that is taken into account by the companies that produce great headers like 2bular.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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a kit without aftermarket headers and sports cats (like SSC kit), then main discussion here has been that 470bhp with stock headers and cats will affect reliability 

"Not saying it is not possible. Questioning whether it is advisable for longevity/reliability." this was your specific sentence about SSC kit

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It's easy to make big power for a short about of time... 

Komo-tec have proven that their way of tuning is safe and have a lot of cars out there now with their kits.

My car has had the 460 kit for over 30k miles now and it's been the most reliable part of my car!

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As for the OEM cats, it is not uncommon, even on stndard cars for these discs to braek up and end up back in the engine. Better to ditch them for the small cost when upgrading.

 

And I have to agree with @GFWilliams re Komotec reliability.

 

cheers

Mark

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1 hour ago, cuprapw said:

a kit without aftermarket headers and sports cats (like SSC kit), then main discussion here has been that 470bhp with stock headers and cats will affect reliability 

"Not saying it is not possible. Questioning whether it is advisable for longevity/reliability." this was your specific sentence about SSC kit

A bit different to saying it would "be so insane as to affect reliability"! Hence my comment about you working for the Sun! I stand by my view that the heat generated could affect reliability long term. I'm happy if you disagree with that.

Alcohol. Sex. Tobacco. Drugs. Chocolate.  Meh! NOTHING in this world is as addictive as an Evora +0. It's not for babies!    

The first guy to ride a bull for fun, was a true hero. The second man to follow him was truly nuts!   

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22 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

A bit different to saying it would "be so insane as to affect reliability"! Hence my comment about you working for the Sun! I stand by my view that the heat generated could affect reliability long term. I'm happy if you disagree with that.

hahahahaaha, agree I put a bit of glitter on that one :)

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On 12/03/2021 at 19:27, Hangar 111 said:

Dan, I think that includes a programming lead also - I'll see what I can do for you - not had time today, sorry.

Dave

Hi Dave

dont forget to quote me for the LSD please ... 

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