The 131 engine

[Likuid]

Yeah Lotus isn't ready for that bracket, but the 85k - 130k bracket is pretty devoid of much at the moment. Starting somewhere in the mid to lower end of that range for whatever the high end version of the 131 is may be a good niche for Lotus to carve out.

[PAR]

Cheapest Ferrari is £166k (probably without paint and seats as you need to add options) and this is for a front engine car. Cheapest mid engine is 200k with a v8 of 660bhp

The McLaren GT is 165k and it’s V8 has 612bhp

Lamborghini Huracan is 165k with a V10 that has 602bhp

What are the other mid engine sports car out there? 

New Corvette: 82k with a 500bhp V8

Honda NSX: 150k with V6 hybrid for circa 550bhp 

 

kind of suggests you may get away with 130k and a V6 500bhp at the top end but that is stretching it and the car will need to feel special.

 

 

[Bibs]

As I understand, it's £50k - £95k.

No idea at all where £150k came from but it's not what any Type 131 will cost and it's not going to have a Volvo powertrain. 

[Bibs]

Nope. ICE. 

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

As I understand, it's £50k - £95k

At 50k, have a couple.

[Neal H]

I thought the plan was for Lotus move up market. You can spend £110k on an Exige now (well, not anymore I suppose) and you could probably have spent £120k on an Evora GT430. It’s not much of a leap.

[Neal H]

6 hours ago, Bibs said:

As I understand, it's £50k - £95k.

No idea at all where £150k came from but it's not what any Type 131 will cost and it's not going to have a Volvo powertrain. 

Blimey, so cheaper than Current Elise & Exige! Let’s hope the sales figures are phenomenal to start recouping some of that investment.

[Bibs]

Volume is key 👍

[exeterjeep]

After all there is a whole new factory to build them in so they must expect to sell a reasonable number.

[Barrykearley]

 

20 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Volume is key 👍

They are fitting a decent sound system?

[Julian73]

On 18/03/2021 at 07:15, PAR said:

Yes, the Carlton has a German engine.

The other was Enstone made Lotus branded f1 which had a Mercedes v6 before they become Renault again. 

That F1 team had nothing more than a marketing connection to Lotus Group and the Opel Carlton CIH engine was designed in Detroit by General Motors.

[TdM]

A few things reading through this. V8s are disappearing fast even in the top end machines so I don't think you'll have an issue competing in almost any segment with a V6 now. I presume there are going to be turbos. You wouldn't get away with a supercharger these days!

I would have thought the 'top' of the price range will actually be a *base car* at the top. So a 95k base model, stick some fancy wings on it and a less comfortable seat and you could easily have one well into the 100k+ club.

[JimH]

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/lotus/global-expansion/

 

"On the new sports car, Type 131, ‘not a lot’ is shared with other group models: some switches, column stalks, some of the base electric architecture, ‘high-investment, low impact stuff,’ says Windle. Power comes from the Toyota V6 known from the Exige and Evora, and a 'high-output, lower-capacity engine, where we're partnering with a very famous engine manufacturer. "

[stratosboy]

what about a development of the 3 cylinder Toyota engine from the GR Yaris? in the base model 131?

light and enought power if it can be tuned to more than 270bhp.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, JimH said:

lower-capacity engine, where we're partnering with a very famous engine manufacturer.

Got it - the return of the Coventry Climax - light, nimble...

[TdM]

So a turbo Toyota V6 to keep to regulations but have enough power for modern crazy numbers, and a Merc 4 banger which might be just as quick, if not quicker than the V6...

It'll be interesting what they do with the V6, two things are good from this:

1) Parts availability is going to be good for a lot longer (though I would think it's not too much of an issue with that V6 anyway)

2) If they have pulled more HP from that engine, there are going to be some VERY fast conversions coming up on older cars. Must have a new gearbox I assume

[electro_boy]

1 hour ago, TdM said:

Must have a new gearbox I assume

Ohh yes I hope so!  The engine is supposed to be good for 500 bhp right?  It's just the gearbox that's holding the drivetrain back from more power.   In the 4XX cars they improved the shifter so even in anger it worked well but not really anything to boast about.  If Lotus can come up with a solution that raises the experience from good enough to really ****ing good that would be awesome.  And hopefully not too expensive for older cars to retro fit it 😉

Edited April 13, 2021 by electro_boy

[Likuid]

Honestly I wouldn't put too much stock in the Toyota V6 from the Evora/Exige comment of the article. Its almost like the author is making an assumption, because its not a direct quote, there are no "" around it. I also don't know why Windle would just flippantly mention that it uses the same engine as the Evora/Exige, but keep the 4 cylinder a secret, unless the 4 cylinder is the higher output version for some reason. Even if it does use the current Toyota motor, doesn't seem like something you would just say in passing.

That being said if it is the current Toyota V6, that has positives and negatives. Reliability and parts being the 2 big positives. However, if it truly caps out at around 500HP reliably (with a new stronger gearbox) and if the 131 is truly their last ICE then this car will most likely probably be on the market at least as long as the Evora was. Not sure 500HP is going to cut it for the top end version of the T131 10-years from now now (you could argue it would barely cut it now with the base Corvette doing about the same). Honestly feels like going out more with a whimper than a bang with their final ICE. If this is true then it kind of feels Geely is not interested in investing much into the 131 and seem to be saving their big investment for the electric cars.

That being said, I'm skeptical of anything until its officially announced.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Likuid

[Barrykearley]

BHP is something many folks do seem obsessed with - I’ve been very guilty of that for sure.

However - lotus has never been about chasing big bhp numbers - so if they were to go that route it wouldn’t be following the DNA of the company would it.

The best esprit I ever had was my first one which was the lowest HP one. The Evora never felt like it was lacking - would another 200bhp have been nice ? Maybe - but I’m not sure it would have made it that much of a better car.

Let’s see something beautiful, unique that handles like a dream that’s what it’s all about.

[Likuid]

Sure, but does Lotus want to sell cars or not? Yes HP is not everything, I think we all agree with that here or we wouldn't even own a Lotus. The problem is everyone is acting like Lotus is currently doing great and selling a ton of cars or even some cars. They are selling 1000 - 2000 cars a year. That is pretty terrible for cars that are in that price bracket.  Of course there are many reasons for that, but one of them is trying to sell a $110k Evora GT with 416HP. The new Nissan 400Z will be starting at $35k (USD) and have almost the same HP output as the Evora GT. To your average consumer what makes the Evora GT worth almost 3x the price? HP does help sell cars, especially sport/super cars. Remember Lotus is not Porsche or Ferrari. They do not have the name cache to get customers, they need to bring more to the table to win over new customers and if they win over more customers they will also get more dealers.

I would be happy to see the 131 have 500HP, but if 500HP is the max of that motor (reliably) you won't have any wiggle room to add HP in the future. So my fear (if they use that engine) that they will be limiting themselves severely for the next 10 years or however long the 131 is in production. Since it may be their last ICE it would be nice to know it would have more potential than that out of the gate. Sure, I guess they can always upgrade to a different motor down the road, but since this is apparently their last ICE line-up I see that as unlikely.

Listen, I get it, most of us here aren't HP slaves. However, think about this; if the 131 sells well, maybe that means Lotus will continue making ICE as long as its commercially and legally viable. If the 131 sells poorly then my guess is the 131 will be cut short and they will make their move to electric sooner. So IMO, its important for Lotus as a company and important to us as fans of Lotus to want the 131 to do well.

Either way, unless its a complete let down or severely overpriced it may be my next car. I just want Lotus to also do well, if they means I may see another Lotus on the road every 3 months instead of well...almost never... I can live with that.

P.S. When talking HP numbers I am only talking about the highest end model of the 131. Since it appears to be possibly 3 models. Obviously the lower end models can have lower HP if they are priced right.

[brightoncorgi]

I bet they'll stick with Toyota since this is a transition model from ICE to Electric based cars.  Why invest in short lived and new suppliers and engines?  Stick with what works.  Volvo/Geely will be foundation for the electronics, motors, and batteries in the future.  Lotus will have a lot of engineering work supporting the Geely umbrella.

[Snoopy1969]

On 20/03/2021 at 19:21, Barrykearley said:

 

They are fitting a decent sound system?

after 8 years in the Evora I figured out that the sound of the pioneer radio could be upgraded a LOT by just streaming internet radio from the iphone than using the "normal" radio with its - lets say - "surprising" perception😁

[NedaSay]

To get back on the powertrain debate when it comes to the Emira V6.

I think we can pretty much guarantee that it will comply with much stricter EU guidelines regardless of the engine cylinder count. the V6 will not be the Camry engine anymore, as the 2GR-FE cannot make it thru California CARB emissions regulations anylonger. The 2GR-FE is finally being discontinued, it is actually finishing its life on the Evora GT. There's no point launching a global car if from the get go, the engine can't make it on the top sport car markets (US, EU, Japan)

if the car comes with the same engine layout as Evora, I assume that the car will either receive a 2FR-FKS or 7GR-FKS. The much newer 2/7GR-FKS engine are as modern as Toyota makes them and will have no problem making emissions.  they come with 315hp n/a and will rev well into 7200rpm, even though Toyota keeps them at 6600 for the Lexus cars. If you supercharge it or turbocharge it, getting 450bhp is an easy get, and for Lotus that's very cost effective ; same supercharger and possibly same manual gearbox, but way more refined block and heads. Turbocharging it would make it easier for the gearbox to cope with more torque lower in the rev range, especially considering all the work Lotus as done on the BG6, they may want to recoup that money a bit longer.

As for the 4cyl, I'm still extremely sceptical about AMG providing powertrain to Lotus. Especially with the closer ties(shareholding) AMG has with Aston Martin these days. Despite the fact that Geely holding owns a 9% stake in Daimler.  The Volvo Drive E engine makes more sense to me, especially since Volvo and Toyota have the same gearbox supplier Aisin (current gearbox supplier of Lotus). One of the key point in the presentation was Lotus being able to generate profit thru economies of scale... I don't see how the AMG  powertrain fits in that framework. especially between now and 2028, when the company becomes EV only.

So my guess is, both i4 and V6 get a manual (6 speed) and automatic (8 speed) version. The BG6 is pretty much as good as it gets thanks to Lotus' own gear linkage and Lotus can easily work on making the 8 speed feel fast and as snappy as a DCT as it is all software. Most DCT drivers use their gearboxes as full auto only switching to manual every now and then.  Lotus can ask Volvo Polestar for pointers and share the order book. it makes financial sense but to some it will not be as dreamy as an AMG 4cyl for some reason.

[PAR]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36255814/lotus-emira-engines-news-info/
 

with quotes to make it sound less like Journalists making things up. Sorry Nedasay, no Geely engine.

[electro_boy]

I think the Merc AMG M139 engine has a too high power output and would be too close to the V6.   It would have to be a detuned version or a non AMG version of the engine.

What about something from the Ford eco boost range?  They are often sold as crate engines and used by other smaller manufacturers?