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2-3 years left to enjoy our sports cars...


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If you love sports cars, you need to make the most of them over the next two years or so…

As many of you are already aware, from June 2022 all new cars will come fitted with speed limiters (Intelligent Speed Assistance – ISA). These will include mandatory data loggers. Yes, initially you will allowed to turn ISA off manually (likely necessitating multiple screens etc. as each car company tries to make it awkward to do). It is unclear as to whether the data logger would be turned off along with the ISA system; I suspect not! The systems will be reset as soon as the engine is switched off, so you will need to manually disable it for every single journey.

Engine power will be limited, although this can be over-ridden by pressing harder on the accelerator. Visual and audible warnings will increase in intensity as you remain over the limit; think about how parking sensor alarms sound as you draw near to another car, a wall etc.

HOWEVER, the European Transport and Safety Council admits the system will come with a full on/off switch only initially. This is only ‘to aid public acceptance at introduction’ - their quote. New cars will likely not have a switch option for very long! Furthermore, it is all but inevitable that insurance companies will want access to the data logger. This would be automatic in the event of any accident; the technology allows constant recording so millions of drivers will be logged 24/7 automatically, with their insurance companies noting ‘aggressive’ driving and putting up policy payments accordingly – as they already do for many new/young drivers, who have the 'black box/telematics' loggers fitted. No-one will want to have a  spirited drive knowing there’s a data logger noting every detail…

The part that seems to be largely ignored is that this is simply the first part of the legislation: the systems will be required on all new models given ‘type’ approval from May 2022, with all models on the market before that date required to adopt the tech by May 2024.

All models on the market before that date required to adopt the tech by May 2024’!

Unless public outcry (i.e. who is going to pay for it/right to not have all your journey data logged/Big Brother/Nanny State etc.) results in governmental intervention, sports cars are around two and a half years from becoming largely irrelevant. A huge proportion of people able to afford a premium car will simply go for luxury/technology instead of a sports car because they are not going to splash out extra tens of thousands of pounds, dollars euros etc. only to be flashed/beeped/recorded/have unpleasant emails/letters/phone calls from their insurance companies. 

Unfortunately, I envision the 2028 premium sector as being dominated by luxurious electric SUVs (with considerably irony over the ‘S’ part!)

Make the most of your driving, folks: May 2024 is not as far away as we’d all like it to be…
 

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Do you have a links to an official website stating this info? I have no info that would dispute your clam, but as you highlight - That’s not far away at all - how does it work on old stuff with carbs n distrubutors?

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This has been announced previously by the EU, can't imagine that cars made for the US etc will have this enforced on them. It is all steps in the progression to auto driving cars. And to keep all people keeping to the law.

I should not think it would be possible to enforce retro fitment to older cars. So may be an incentive to keep older/classic sports going for longer. 

When TPMS was mandated for it was not enforced for older cars - imagine having all the tech on a model T Ford.

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This must be just for the UK? EU? Data loggers are not required here for P platers or young drivers.

I do not think that insurance companies would be able to get access to the data all the time to decide premiums? That would have to be a major infringement of privacy.

I can understand the data being used in the case of an accident.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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As far as I understand, the new EU law regarding speed limiters will only be applied to new cars only.

Here's a link to an Autotrader vid. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandatory-speed-limiters-on-uk-cars-from-2022&ved=2ahUKEwiI5qW0pdjyAhURTsAKHVSLDSYQtwJ6BAgrEAE&usg=AOvVaw0GRHvFiOILjdGJmLC7s_vs

And for any armchair legal eagles out there the EU Regulation itself. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2019/2144/oj

Lover of everything Lotus Cars and proud owner of production Evora No.75 (2nd UK customer specced car by VIN). Originally from the Far East....of Anglia, I read black box data for a living so that could explain a lot!

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4 minutes ago, EuropaSman said:

As far as I understand, the new EU law regarding speed limiters will only be applied to new cars only.

This may impact the production and sales of new cars in the EU/UK, does it also have any bearing on the decision by Mitsubishi to pull out of EU/UK market and concentrate on US and Japan.

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I'm not sure, but quite a lot of the tech mentioned in the regulation already exists. It's just going to be more advanced for the most part. I've read that rear collision sensors will also be mandatory for instance. 

Good news (I think) regarding the data recorders; advice in the reg states "event data recorder’ means a system with the only purpose of recording and storing critical crash-related parameters and information shortly before, during and immediately after a collision". I've not yet found a definition for the amount of time "shortly before" means. My interpretation is that routine data monitoring (like what I do for a living with commercial jet airliners) is not going to happen. Also I don't think the recorder data will be accessed by the insurance company in the event of a claim. 

The regulation quotes that the recorders will collect de-identified data only. It goes on to say that "the data that they are capable of recording can be made available to national authorities, on the basis of Union or national law, only for the purpose of accident research and analysis, including for the purposes of type approval of systems and components". 

Lover of everything Lotus Cars and proud owner of production Evora No.75 (2nd UK customer specced car by VIN). Originally from the Far East....of Anglia, I read black box data for a living so that could explain a lot!

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Sounds quite Orwellian, 1984 and all that, but I don't think that will happen in the UK & EU because there is a clause in the EU Regulation that says the data is "anonymised and protected against manipulation and misuse". It goes on to say that "an event recorder shall not be capable of recording and storing the last four digits of the vehicle identification section of the vehicle identification number or any other information which could allow the individual vehicle, its owner or holder, to be identified."

When these recorders come in I am going to assume that for a major prang, i.e. life threatening injuries or fatalities involved, only then will the police download the information.

According to EU 2019/2144 parameters recorded include vehicle speed, braking (manual/automatic application & force I assume), position and tilt of the vehicle on the road, state and rate of all safety system activations, 112 (999 in UK) based e-Call in vehicle system activation, brake activation and relevant input parameters of the on-board active safety and accident avoidance systems".

I wouldn't be surprised if Aurstralia carbon copied the legislation (I believe that ANCAP is based on Euro NCAP so there is precedence).

Recorders will be mandatory on all automated, which seems sensible to me.

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Lover of everything Lotus Cars and proud owner of production Evora No.75 (2nd UK customer specced car by VIN). Originally from the Far East....of Anglia, I read black box data for a living so that could explain a lot!

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That was my thoughts. Accessible only after a crash has occurred and been reported.

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All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators.

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  • Gold FFM

My cynical point of view used to be that it's a cash grab for insurance companies and absolutely nothing to do with safety. Flight recorders (aka Black Boxes) in aircraft do not make pilots safer pilots or help them avoid crashes.   

Black Boxes have always been about pointing the finger of blame and therefore who pays for the damages in the event of an accident, driven by the insurance companies. Don't have a data recorder fitted to your vehicle? An instant premium addition, zero NCD or worse - you'll become uninsurable.

The only way that such "past event" data recording can have an impact on safety is if that data is open access and used to improve our vehicles, roads and junctions. Futurists believe that it's a data-mining exercise for the AI of driverless cars. I don't believe we're there yet or anywhere near it going by how the recent track & trace "project" cost and performed.

However, my point of view has shifted, somewhat due to the second sentence of this post. Black Boxes don't make pilots have less crashes; years of training, thorough testing, experience and professionalism does that. Arguably more importantly, a tonne load of restrictions and control are just as effective - if you don't obey you'll lose your pilots licence. Pilots are constantly monitored.

Drivers are subjected to hundreds of restrictions but yet millions still flout them each year going by the number of fines issued. There are still hundreds of crashes and deaths on our roads each year. So that leaves control. Control and behaviour of young drivers is quite effectively achieved with these so called Black Boxes so it makes perfect sense to expand the demographic to everyone. These are just the first steps to implementing it.

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An alternative view on the flight data recorders comments though. Yes Alan, you are correct that flight data recorders do not make pilots safer. However, in very brief terms (I could write a whole book on the topic of flight data recording and use of the data but would bore everyone on this forum thread to death! :geek:) the data from these recorders does help in reducing the risk of serious incidents and accidents in commercial aviation through routine analysis and feedback. This is part of a more holistic airline "safety management" approach, which is all about learning, looking at things from reactive, proactive and predictive stand points. As you mention, pilots are constantly monitored. Along with other components of the safety management system, one of the inputs is from "Flight Data Monitoring" (FDM for short). The way this is done is by using a parallel feed from the "black box" (which is orange - I love that fact). There are protocols etc. in place for protection of individuals and the data but this is not the appropriate forum to go into these aspects.

I think there is a distinction to be drawn here between the mandatory EU Regs "Car Data Recorders" (I see "big data" as an influence here, but on an "autopsy approach" basis) and the insurance companies' telemetrics "black boxes" to assess the day to day risks with the policy holders by monitoring the way they drive.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out with the EU regulation. The subject of monitoring has been and is an emotive topic. I cannot see continuous monitoring of all drivers being a thing right now.  Setting out the EU regulations is one thing, but implementation when it comes to processes and procedures for where, when and how to acquire/process/analyse the car data recorder data will be another thing.  Just my two pennies of thought there...

 

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Lover of everything Lotus Cars and proud owner of production Evora No.75 (2nd UK customer specced car by VIN). Originally from the Far East....of Anglia, I read black box data for a living so that could explain a lot!

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All Lotus already come with data loggers. When I have my 2010 Evora serviced I request a copy of my file to see what my driving has been like for the previous year.

It should also be taken into account that these are sports cars and some owners choose to use there cars on track days which involves spirited driving and they are also used for touring on the continent where driving speeds may be higher. There is no geo-location on this data.

Edit: All modern Lotus

Edited by mg4lotus
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  • Gold FFM

You wouldn't bore me @EuropaSman, although I can't speak for the others! In my old job I dealt with a lot of data and it always boiled down to one thing - why do you need it?

Some current car manufacturers do this for Condition Based Monitoring purposes, for example how often you brake and at what speed, mileage and a plethora of other factors, to judge when your next service is due.

In the case of mandatory car data recorders, they aren't implementing it just because they can, there must be a reason. Who has the right to access it - government, police, insurers - and what are they going to do with it? I'm no privacy fanatic or anything I'm just curious what the ultimate aim of this is and how it'll impact the future of driving.

@mg4lotus, it'll probably be time-stamped or mileage-stamped which can still tell a lot.

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The Autotrader artice says, "Citroen, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Peugeot, Renault and Volvo. Renault Group also confirmed that all upcoming Renault and Citroen cars will have a top speed of 112 mph to increase safety."  How does that increase safety by a significant amount?  How many fatalities are through cars crashing at over 112 mph?  It's like our local Post Office van which has a 70 mph speed limiter according to a sticker on its rear.  Not very reassuring when it spends most of its time in a 30 mph limit.

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S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

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EDR's have been part of USA cars for years as part of the airbag systems. Data is available to the police, ideally  as part of an accident investigation, but I doubt that's exclusively the case given the current data privacy environment. 

I think most insurers here write in data access into the policy language, i.e. if you have a policy- you have given permission to them. I've not seen much on the equipment necessary to access, especially as there can be different proprietary protocols by manufacturer, but someone is selling them to the police, so they are available.

Maybe a factory service manual might say where the the EDR resides, but it's most likely in the ECU where the sensor inputs already go. I thought about finding and disabling the memory logging chip, but don't have the knowledge to find it...

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  • Gold FFM
On 30/08/2021 at 18:51, mg4lotus said:

All Lotus already come with data loggers. When I have my 2010 Evora serviced I request a copy of my file to see what my driving has been like for the previous year.

Is WoT the standard state and it just reports deviance from that?

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On 30/08/2021 at 09:24, exeterjeep said:

This may impact the production and sales of new cars in the EU/UK, does it also have any bearing on the decision by Mitsubishi to pull out of EU/UK market and concentrate on US and Japan.

They hardly sold any cars - that was the main reason !

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How much can your car know about you? – EU guidelines on data protection and connected vehicles | Hogan Lovells - JDSupra

 

Cars already carry and record this data. For example all Ford cars come with a 4g modem that is used by the Ford Pass App but also anonymously by Ford for collecting vehicle performance data. This can be very useful for them such as proving that the new Kuga PHEV is run for around 50% of it's mileage in electric mode, surprisingly high when you consider all the ' PHEV's are only bought for tax purposes and never charged'

The ownership of this data and who can use it is already covered by GDPR, it may get abused but that is what the courts / ICO are for. Remember that if this data is used after an accident or by a car dealer, some of it will require your consent, which if not given cannot be used against you.

 

On the download: How car dealers could be stealing your data | Autocar

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