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12 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Sadly the internet is full of cry baby snowflakes whom don’t like others opinions - even more so when they are on the side that’s lost

Spellcheckers hey 👊🤷‍♂️
don’t need to thank me for sorting your typos.

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Only here once

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To be fair to France and our French friends on here.   France's contribution to Nato is well above average and meets the Nato 2% commitment.  The same cannot be said about most other members.  In the early stages of the invasion, they also took very similar steps to the UK, in direct support of Ukraine, unlike many other EU/Nato members that sat on their hands.     

If the leading actors in Nato thought there would be a quicker and controlled end to the invasion by sending offensive weapons (tanks) and implementing a 'no fly' zone, then that is what they should do.   However, there seems a rational possibility that it could cause the conflict to spill out into Europe and we know how that could end.   It is entirely reasonable that Macron should oppose escalation with a view to protecting the population of France.   

TBH I'm getting to the position where I think Nato should be taking more direct action, but I'm prepared to defer to 'experts' who have to balance members national security against what is 'right & wrong'.

NB - I think PAR lives in Singapore! 

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I did read that France as the only other European power with nuclear defence alongside the UK. Has put 4 of its subs on patrol. I think it's normally just one 

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

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12 hours ago, 910Esprit said:

To be fair to France and our French friends on here.   France's contribution to Nato is well above average and meets the Nato 2% commitment.   

Well, except between 1966 and 2009. I participated in Operation Deny Flight in the 90's based out of a French base and even so we weren't allowed to interact with the French, being non-NATO at the time. At least they came around eventually. 👍 It's always been fashionable to poo-poo NATO (almost every member's done it), or most any "unequal alliance" for that matter, but when the bear is beating up on your neighbor, who you gonna call? 👻

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31 minutes ago, yeller77 said:

who you gonna call? 👻

That would be the UN - Except, where are they?    Nato is a members club...   Its purpose is not that of an international policeman/peacekeeper.

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Hard to be much of a peacekeeper when those whose wrists you're trying to slap are members, along with their buddies, who can log vetoes, walk out, ignore resolutions, etc. Either Putin will just exhaust his resources and his populace's patience or someone may eventually pick up a bat and join the brawl. Sadly, if Chechnya is any indication, this could take years. 

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2 hours ago, yeller77 said:

Well, except between 1966 and 2009. I participated in Operation Deny Flight in the 90's based out of a French base and even so we weren't allowed to interact with the French, being non-NATO at the time. At least they came around eventually. 👍 It's always been fashionable to poo-poo NATO (almost every member's done it), or most any "unequal alliance" for that matter, but when the bear is beating up on your neighbor, who you gonna call? 👻

"being non-Nato at the time" ..  I presume that means you. Can't be the French because they were founding members in 1949 and no founding members have ever left. France is a nuclear power, same as USA and UK, and have developed their own devices and maintains it's sea and air delivery systems independently of others so that may be why there was no interaction. Other Nato countries of Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands and Turkey also have nuclear delivery systems but weapons are provided by USA and maintained by USAF personnel under a 'sharing agreement' and USA has to supply the codes to activate them...  so effectively control their use.

Phil           Leave me alone I know what to do - I think. 

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Semantics to a degree. No, France didn’t “leave” NATO. Yes, no disrespect to France as a nuclear power. Yes, de Gaulle’s unilateral withdrawal from NATO’s integrated military structure in the 60’s did have tangible and lasting effects on NATO joint operations subsequently which I experienced in the 90’s. No more no less. Happy to agree to disagree, if necessary to avoid getting too far from the topic of the plight of Ukraine.  

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Have Putin's personal assets been located and frozen as well? The oligarchs?

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1586883/ukraine-live-russia-war-sanctions-liz-truss-vladimir-putin-dmitry-medvedev-latest-zelensky?fbclid=IwAR0f-dtzYRWAjoTlXNCnBqPFteL-5ZL4P8XQ-D6T6GawbvQ5473c_n_1YPo

says,

Putin misery as Russian turncoat surrenders for £7.5K after troops run away

VLADIMIR Putin suffered further humiliation after a Russian soldier traded in his tank for £7,500 and Ukrainian citizenship.

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New business opportunities/business'   , webuyanytank, webuyanywarplane webuyanyarmouredpersonnelcarrier   ........   

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9 hours ago, ramjet said:

Have Putin's personal assets been located and frozen as well? The oligarchs?

 

Not sure that will make any difference, Putin never really ventures outside Russia, and from what I read, is not as motivated by money as his billionaire friends. This is unconfirmed, though.

Margate Exotics.

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WTF! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60904676

Poisoning at the negotiating table. Sooner Putin gets ousted/shot/blown up the better! 

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3 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

 

Not sure that will make any difference, Putin never really ventures outside Russia, and from what I read, is not as motivated by money as his billionaire friends. This is unconfirmed, though.

There are rumors he may be the richest man in the world, £220 billion. There is a billion pound palace that is supposedly one of his homes, multiple yachts and 58 private jets.

Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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Putin is a thieving kleptocrat and narcissist comparable to Donald Trump. Given latitude, DT would rule by the same by the same thuggery. The West have responded with clarity to Putin's malfeasance and have no latitude for appeasement. The current "negotiations" are tactical Kabuki theatre, and all sides know this. Putin has shifted strategy from total overrun to consolidation of territories gained by war and so has ensured no scope for peaceful reconciliation, not that I ever imagined it possible. Prediction: Russian forces dig in on the Crimea, Donesk, etc and NATO moves steadily forward on containment, including Ukraine and any other willing former Soviet state. China watches closely and adjusts strategic planning accordingly. Multipolar new world order is taking shape. Glad to report Canada joins other Western nations in shaping up on funding of defense resources after decades of enjoying slack. Thanks to the UK, France and  America for their maintenance of Western military capabilities.

Regards 

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So our news tonight said that all of Putins advisers are scared to tell him that it is not going well.

Really? How long will these people watch all of the misery they are causing before someone grows a pair? How can a bunch of grown men work when it appears there is so much mistrust sown between them all?

Imagine someone thinking of a coup. 'A' mentions it to 'B'. Will 'B' hop on board with 'A' or will 'B' run straight to Putin and blab? 'A' and his family are in serious trouble. 'C'? 'D'?

How may advisers does he have? How many would it take to do something? I can't imagine the stress that all of these guys are under. I might be completely wrong and they may not care at all.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

For forum issues, please contact one of us Moderators.

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