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  • Gold FFM
58 minutes ago, march said:

Sorry that does not cut it with me. A European country is being invaded, people are dying, and we are just sitting on the side lines watching and tinkering with a few sanctions. At what point should the UK and EU actually stand up and so something meaningful?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying standing on the side is the right thing to do, just that those in power will be very careful before doing something that could backfire.

And even if the loans are not 'real' money, the effect would be very real. We've had a taste of that already, bubbles are easy to burst.

Again, I may not agree but don't see many viable alternatives to stop Russia without hurting ourselves even more.
As said above, nobody wants a war because everyone fears/knows Putin will not be the one who hesitates to take it to the next level. And that will end badly for everyone... Maybe our biggest fear should be that China could emerge the victor of an armed conflict between east and west and so has reasons to promote one.

I have made many mistakes in my life. Buying a multiple Lotus is not one of them.

 

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There is a lot of selectively in your approach C8 , which is unhelpful to a sober assessment of a complex situation. As for “ pro Corbyn propaganda “, we have been swamped daily with anti Corbyn propaganda for the past 6 years including from all the Blair supporters - so I won’t apologise for giving a counter view . A brief example ; 4 years ago in the House , Corbyn condemned Russian interference in British politics and their funding of UK political parties . The speech is absolutely available online . At the time he was shouted down ! 
Secondly the collapse of communism led to the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact . NATO carried on . Who was the new enemy for NATO ? It’s only too obvious that the freeing of Russian capitalism was sold to us as the end of the Cold War , even ( absurdly ) the “ end of history “. Yes , Putin wasn’t interested in better relations but on the other hand the former Soviet - sphere countries were certainly not keen on Russia either . NATO remains a red rag to the Russian bull ( or bear if you like ). It would be very interesting to see how Finland reacts given that it used to be part of Russia. I’m hearing no stories of panic in Helsinki . 
As for gas , that’s half the story . Rees Mogg selling his shares in a Russian Investment house 23 days before this invasion . Some might call that “ insider trading “. Face it , C8 , the Tories are in this up to their necks and don’t take my word for it , take statements from the US expressing disappointment at the UKs sluggishness in enforcing sanctions .

 Brexit by definition entails a divided European response to Putins aggression- that’s exactly what Leave wanted and they’re getting it . 

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10 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

All this talk about banning certain currency transactions (EUR, USD, GBP, etc.). So what’s the deal with Bitcoin etc.? Who controls crypto?

For lots of general purchases by individuals and companies, the sanctions don't cause a problem but for key transactions the sanctions do pose a problem for Russia where those are normally settled in US$. They will probably get round these sanctions with less impact than 20 years or so ago, because Russia will trade with China, China will trade with the rest of the world, but it's not as slick.

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17 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

That won't happen as it WILL mean the mass destruction of Europe, the US, and Russia. 
Any attack by the West on Russian military forces and installations on Russian soil could precipitate the sky being full of missiles. Hardly a sensible approach.

That’s what Putin wants us to believe with his hard man comments. But what’s in it for him and his people, if he in turn is vaporised by a US/French/British nuke?

There are recent examples of nuclear powers going to war without lobbing nukes at each other. India and Pakistan are always shelling each other, even air strikes as recently as 2019, when I was over there. India v China also killing each other fairly regularly over border incursions.

Basically we gave Putin a written invitation to invade Ukraine by publicly stating that NATO would not get involved. Prior to the invasion I even heard one of his politicians mocking the West during an interview, by gleefully repeating these announcements. He obviously knew what was about to happen. Had NATO beaten Putin to it and stationed sizeable forces in Ukraine, then he would never have attempted an invasion IMO. They are a sitting duck with our arms tied resolutely behind our backs and he knows it.

He’ll get his way and we’ll be set for another few decades of Cold War.

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33 minutes ago, basalte said:

There is a lot of selectively in your approach C8 , which is unhelpful to a sober assessment of a complex situation. As for “ pro Corbyn propaganda “, we have been swamped daily with anti Corbyn propaganda for the past 6 years including from all the Blair supporters - so I won’t apologise for giving a counter view . A brief example ; 4 years ago in the House , Corbyn condemned Russian interference in British politics and their funding of UK political parties . The speech is absolutely available online . At the time he was shouted down ! 
Secondly the collapse of communism led to the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact . NATO carried on . Who was the new enemy for NATO ? It’s only too obvious that the freeing of Russian capitalism was sold to us as the end of the Cold War , even ( absurdly ) the “ end of history “. Yes , Putin wasn’t interested in better relations but on the other hand the former Soviet - sphere countries were certainly not keen on Russia either . NATO remains a red rag to the Russian bull ( or bear if you like ). It would be very interesting to see how Finland reacts given that it used to be part of Russia. I’m hearing no stories of panic in Helsinki . 
As for gas , that’s half the story . Rees Mogg selling his shares in a Russian Investment house 23 days before this invasion . Some might call that “ insider trading “. Face it , C8 , the Tories are in this up to their necks and don’t take my word for it , take statements from the US expressing disappointment at the UKs sluggishness in enforcing sanctions .

 Brexit by definition entails a divided European response to Putins aggression- that’s exactly what Leave wanted and they’re getting it . 

I actually think that the "selectivity" is coming from you, as are the constant referrals back to Corbyn and you're sponsorship of what a great guy he is.

Not sure how or why Corbyn is even relevant in this thread. You call it giving a balance re Corbyn and yet you are the one who is driving an agenda re Corbyn on here - good or bad.

I couldn't give a fcuk about him in this context. He is irrelevant to be honest in my opinion. As is Blair. Thatcher. Major. etc...  They are of the past. Not the present.

All of your posts to be honest just seem to be anti-tory (you probably think we are all blue bloods on here) or an excuse to have a pop at what you consider to be the "elites".  Hence your referrals to donations, Rees-Mogg, etc.  It's not balanced at all to be honest.

It's like your statement re Brexit. Total and utter bollocks in my very humble opinion. You think the EU response would have been any different with the UK in the EU?  Are you trying to imply that the UK being "out of" the EU made it easier for Putin to invade through less consequences through a divided response. Honestly, bollocks mate. The response from the West is exactly what we should have expected - "oh Putin my dear boy, please put your toys down and stop doing that or mummy will tell daddy what a bad boy you have been when he comes home from work".  It was never going to be anything else. too much at stake, both financially, economically and the threat of all out war spreading to Europe.  Putin has played everyone. Time will tell whether he really wins anything.

For the record - I'm not a Tory supporter or card carrier. So you don't have to ram "Corbyn" down my throat as (1) I would never be so feckless or clueless to vote for him and (2) based on what i see from Starmer/Rayner etc I have no confidence in Labour doing a better job than the Tories. If you look at my posts when i do mention Tories or China funding of Labour, it is ONLY as a result of your constant attacks on Tories as being the route of all evil. Despite what you so obviously think I:

1. Don't buy the Daily Mail

2. Don't read the Daily Mail

3. Don't contribute to the Daily Mail

4. Don't set the agenda of the Daily Mail

5. Don't Edit the Daily Mail

6. Don't own the Daily Mail

7, Don't care about the Daily Mail

:)

 

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I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

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C8 please take note that the phrase "it wasnt me !" sounds a bit glib and curt but you`ll surely note that it was NOT myself who posted about Corbyn initially, it was someone else who has a right wing agenda dressed up as "common sense" as usual (that`s purely my opinion of course before someone else gets all riled up  ) who posted on Wednesday at 9.07. I wasn`t intending to involve him but indeed I get fed up with all the Anti-corbyn propaganda from tax avoiding billionaire press barons.

Dont want to prejudge others attitudes  but AFAIK  I`m the only one on this entire forum backing him up !

I`m not even backing Labour who are anything but a "blob" by the way-I`m sure Starmer loathes Corbyn more than you do-but that is all off topic .

Perhaps one day you`ll at least acknowledge that the guy hasn`t buckled under from being called all the names under The Sun (pun intended) for 6 years-where Miliband nearly had a breakdown and Starmer whinges because a few people shouted at him in the street.

  I agree with you much more than you think about Blair who I find entirely unscrupulous - except that all those right of Corbyn are also (key word) there to preserve an economic structure that makes absurdly small numbers of people absurdly rich. The key expression "sticking to your guns" applies.

(They all fear Corbyn`s  tax proposals ( for example, he was to tax corporations to the same level as Thatcher did - hey, how very "extremist" of him !)

In asserting that the above are "irrelevant" , of course they are no longer / never had power-but the invasion of Ukraine has a background, a history in which Blair in particular was a key player. Certain awkward facts are being left out here and it is impossible to understand the present war and our Government`s  reaction without referring to them.   If that means having a go at the Tories then so be it. 

As with all my posts I`m not trying to win people to my views (which are certainly largely unsupported by the mainstream media and are not typical of Lotus enthusiasts in my experience ); merely to point out some salient facts one of which is that the Conservative Party over the last ten years has been attracted to Russian money -and that kind of money usually comes with a nod and a wink. If you are following the news you`ll know that the Ukrainians themselves are frustrated by the UKs lack of action.

There must be a lot of eye-rolling at this thread by now but it does seem to me that France and Germany are relatively united in their reaction (love or hate it ) and we are not . How is this a male testicular organ ?  Your relentless mission to blame the EU (and once again I emphasise that I am not their biggest fan) , seems to ignore that insurmountable fact.     

 

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26 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Back on topic, I do believe that Putin is goading both NATO and the West in the hope of having a war, not just over Ukraine but also with his actions of incursions into the sovereign airspace etc of other countries.
Unfortunately we need sanctions that will cause hurt & harm to the Russian people, since a major coup in Russia is going to be the only way of getting Putin off his self proclaimed throne

Don't know if anyone watched "Warship: Life at sea" - there were several episodes all about the fact they were trying to find a Russian submarine off Scotland. One also showed the ship having to chase a Russian spy ship that was literally sailing into Faslane. 

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Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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3 minutes ago, basalte said:

it was someone else who has a right wing agenda dressed up as "common sense" as usual (that`s purely my opinion of course before someone else gets all riled up  ) who posted on Wednesday at 9.07.

Well Fuck you - Admin do what you like with this post. I take great exception to this. I am not right wing. I have not attacked you personally but I take this as real slight on my character. If this is the way this forum is going I'm out of here permanently.

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I have apologised to March; he took something personally which was not (and I would say cannot) be taken as a criticism of character but if someone is offended I am content to believe they are offended. If that makes me some kind of  snowflake,  so be it. 

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42 minutes ago, basalte said:

but it does seem to me that France and Germany are relatively united in their reaction (love or hate it ) and we are not

Doesn't seem that way to me - I cant previously recall, Labour, Libdems, SNP & Plaid Cwmru in full agreement in the HoC.  Conversely, the EU seems all over the place.   Perhaps understandably the Baltic states want full on military action, whereas, Germany has offered to send hats.    I believe France is sending money & military equipment to Ukraine and troops to the eastern EU countries, which seems far more aligned to the UK's contribution?   

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56 minutes ago, basalte said:

There must be a lot of eye-rolling at this thread by now but it does seem to me that France and Germany are relatively united in their reaction (love or hate it ) and we are not . How is this a male testicular organ ?  Your relentless mission to blame the EU (and once again I emphasise that I am not their biggest fan) , seems to ignore that insurmountable fact.     

 

FFS - really?  You twist everything.

Can I remind you that it was YOU who blamed the lack of a co-ordinated response on BREXIT. All I did was respond and point out that I did not think that even with the UK in the EU the response would not have been, in the round, any different.  How is that a "relentlees mission to the blame the EU".  I really do think you need to re read your posts, and the responses they have elicited, as quite frankly, you are now coming across as being delusional and I am saying this as you are constantly insinuating assumptions about others.

You seem to champion something, then immediately say you are "not its biggest fan". Time to make your mind up as right now, I think you need to go and take your pills and sit in a dark corner. Your arguments are NOT cohesive as you raise something, it gets answered, you can cast your view on the person who answered you, then immediately shift the focus to something new. It's like you throw the hand grenade in, watch the carnage, then move to the next room to throw another hand grenade in.

What is the point you are trying to make really. As I'm really confused how this is contributing to the debate re what is happening in Ukraine.

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

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Fair point , (the EU is not a totalitarian bloc ) , but given its self proclaimed size and status the UK is undoubtedly out on a limb diplomatically, particularly in the eyes of the USA . 

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“ I think you need to go and take your pills and sit in a dark corner “ . And I am the one making offensive remarks. Okaaayy….

I am wise to your belief system C8 ; a belief system based on years of acquiescence to news agendas that support a particular world view . That in no way makes you a bad person and you are the vast majority, not me . What it does seem to mean however is that you regard challenges to some aspects of that belief system as a “ hand grenade “ . I find that attitude bizarre particularly as I have pointed out that I was RESPONDING to a post , not initiating one . 
If I were really some hothead  you would find me here OPENING threads all over the place about all sorts of nasty stuff that goes completely unreported and is completely unrelated to Lotus . As it is you find perfectly fact - based examples giving rise to concerns over Russian influence over the Conservatives to be inflammatory where the Russians are definitely the bad guys here . 

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  • Gold FFM

My turn. Fuck off @basalte. You do not "know me at all" and so you have no idea what my belief system is and if you think yo do know me from a few posts on here then you are frankly misguided.

Don't bother re the offensive marks retort - I made it quite clear that it was in response to your insinuations about everyone else. Your post above comes across to me as from someone who is an entitled, arrogant know it all.

I very very rarely lose my temper (not the same as having a rant) but you have managed to make me lose it today. Well done bud.

Let's focus on the topic and thread, which is what is happening in Ukraine and keep your biases and assumptions about people and their character where they belong, in your head.

No doubt a mod will be along to censor and award me a red card, despite the provocation, and you'll get off scot free as usual. But that's two people in a very short period of time you have managed to detonate with your hand grenades. Must be a good day for you Sir.

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I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

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Quote

Let's focus on the topic and thread, which is what is happening in Ukraine and keep your biases and assumptions about people and their character where they belong, in your head.

THIS

Plenty to discuss without getting personal, just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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I have made many mistakes in my life. Buying a multiple Lotus is not one of them.

 

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Yep . Trouble is I have discovered my new superpower ; to enrage people by not swearing and not calling them names and not suggesting they’re deluded or insane . The POWER of it ! 😂😂😂

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No. You just insult them by applying labels willy nilly with no idea as to whether those labels are correct, just justified by your arrogance and belief you know people you've never met well enough to label them.

I would not call that a superpower. Well, here's my "label" for you, your narcissistic and disingenuous. Have a great day.

I came into this world screaming and covered in someone elses blood. I'll probably leave it in the same way. 

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