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Dan

Esprit wikipedia entry

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I happened across the Lotus Esprit wikipedia entry a few days back, and after reading through it noted that the 'external links' section had EFF listed but neither LEW or LEF. An odd omission - to say the least - so I added in links to both sites.

Somebody called 'zach4636' undid my edit, citing them as "spam links". Did he bother to follow the links and see what they related to? Oh, hang on, it must be all the viagra, penis enlargements, and replica watches that both sites are renowned for :whistle:

So along comes Mark Blanchard (I assume) and adds in a link to his site - closely followed by it being removed by 'greglocock' as an "unimpressive fan link". Again I disagree.

Another anonymous user (like myself) came along on the 28th and added back in external links to EFF, LEF, LEW, Mark's page etc.. Again these were edited away almost immediately by 'greglocock' as "fantripe", and in what seems a fit of pique, he then proceeded to remove the entire external links section! So the wikipedia entry for the Lotus Esprit now has no formal links, bar a link to the 1980's computer game Turbo Esprit under a 'see also' heading.

I've now created myself a Wikipedia account, so I'm no longer anonymously editing, and have re-instated the External Links section with links to EFF, LEF & LEW, which I feel are the three principal websites for the Esprit, and which as a matter of principle should be listed there even if nothing else is deemed worthy. :lol:

You can see the revisions to the page here - click on any date shown to see the state of the page at that date. My original entry was on the 26th January, source listed just as an IP address, my latest is by user 'DanBasterfield' about three minutes ago.


Dan

"He who dies with the most toys wins..."

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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

I spoke to Bibs about this on the weekend. Yes, I put LEW, LEF, LET and Lotusesprit.org on the external links section the other day and they were removed by Greglocock.

Click on this link to see the history of the Wiki Esprit page: http://en.wikipedia.org/Lotus_Esprit/history

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isn't there a discussion or wikipedia-forum board !?

So if someone had a problem with the edits , he can say why !

Or does this only work in the german wikipedia (as i have seen that the Lotus Cars page does exist in this version , and i also had added some notes in the past . These note are still present i think... )


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to name the things if I see them, that's what I call integrity..

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Yes, I emailed Greglocock on Sunday and recieved this:

Hi Mark

It is a portal (Wiki). Valuable, especially to a lazy journalist, but not aprimary site. The three original pages I looked at all had spellingmistakes or errors in fact or emphasis on them. To an engineer aspelling mistake on a technical page is a problem. If he spells a wordwrong, has the author also transposed two numbers in a spec?

What I'll do is zap all the fan sites.

You need to read [[WP:COI]]. There would be a strong suspicion that youare driving traffic to your site for your own gain.

Cheers

Greg Locock (ex Lotus engineer)

Lotus Esprit Turbo.com gets 1200 visitors a day I doesn't need more visitors. On Sunday it had 6700 visitors (LET was featured in the Times Online). The more visitors it gets, the more it costs to run the site (LET costs

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Sounds like he needs to get out more!

To be fair, we get very little traffic from the wiki page which is why Mark & I dismissed this the other day. If I remember, less than 1% of LEF's referred traffic comes from there. Wikipedia is losing it's reputation and you can see from Mr Locock why.


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

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BTW, I'm not doing this because I'm an LEW/LEF fanboy, but simply because the omission of LEF & LEW from the wikipedia Esprit page seemed to be a huge weakness if the Wikipedia entry is to be comprehensive and credible. Like Mark, I'm sure that Kato & Bibs are more than happy with the levels of traffic they are paying to service at their respective sites :whistle:

Edited by Dan

Dan

"He who dies with the most toys wins..."

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If he's worried about spelling mistakes he should read his own reply! See underlined parts.

Hi Mark

It is a portal (Wiki). Valuable, especially to a lazy journalist, but not aprimary site. The three original pages I looked at all had spellingmistakes or errors in fact or emphasis on them. To an engineer aspelling mistake on a technical page is a problem. If he spells a wordwrong, has the author also transposed two numbers in a spec?

What I'll do is zap all the fan sites.

You need to read [[WP:COI]]. There would be a strong suspicion that youare driving traffic to your site for your own gain.

Cheers

Greg Locock (ex Lotus engineer)

Phil

98GT3

Edited by 98GT3

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He certainly needs a new space bar. I wonder if he can engineer himself one! :whistle:


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

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I can understand not having personal websites and perhaps even LEF since it's more opinions, but LEW is pretty factual and has the backing of the factory (though it does use sponsorship which is probably a no no)...


May: DON'T hit it with a hammer!

Clarkson: Why?

May: Cause it's the tool of a pikey.

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PAH! I gave up trying to get the old man on there. Everytime I put an article in it gets wiped. It's not like he's not important as there are people on there who worked for him on projects etc.

He's mentioned several times in other articles so it's very strange.


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I've now created myself a Wikipedia account . . . and have re-instated the External Links section with links to EFF, LEF & LEW

Nice try Dan. The Fan Tripe has been removed again and zach4636 says, "Please do NOT add these links in again!"

A lost cause IMO.

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... and they're back!

I've opened polite dialogue with zach4636 citing the Wikipedia guidelines on External Links...


Dan

"He who dies with the most toys wins..."

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I've just put a long post in the Wikipedia Esprit 'talk' page, where edits to the page are discussed. Reproduced below for those of you with insomnia :whistle:

I want to see public citing of reasons for exclusion... what I didn't say over at wikipedia is that there's a strong whiff of personal preference/bias, and of "it's my ball so nobody's playing with it" that's driving all this re-editing and purging of useful links.

Why are valid, useful external links being repeatedly purged?

I have a problem with the approach that is being taken on this particular entry regarding external links; looking back over the history for the past couple of weeks there is a clear feeling that the current links are insufficient, but no consistent editorial policy is being applied.

As an anonymous user, I tried to add links to Lotus Esprit World and Lotus Esprit Forum, to complement the existing link to the Esprit Fact File. Subsequent to this, my two additions were removed, then another user added a different site, again there was a partial clean-up, closely follwed by a purge of the entire External Links section. Subsequent users have then reinstated the same external links, only to have them purged again. This is starting to look a little farcical, wouldn't you say?

I'm trying to understand why the links I have posted are verboten, and indeed why some people see the whole concept of external links as irrelevant.

Let me recap on where this particular car is in its product lifecyle: having been produced for the best part of 30 years, it's now been out of production for over 3 years. As a non-current model, whilst Lotus still actively support the vehicle through parts availability and ongoing development, they (understandably) do not devote any of their public, corporate, website to discussion of the Esprit. Having built up an enthusiastic following over the past 30 years as an iconic sportscar, the support and information resources pertinent to the Esprit are, entirely understandably, now provided by clubs and enthusiasts. There is a diverse range of marque-specific and model-specific clubs and informative websites out there, some more useful or complete than others.

Reading the Esprit entry a week or so back, I was frankly astonished to see that two of the three main sources of Esprit information were not linked to, merely being obliquely referenced in the references section. Hence my additions and where this saga began.

Please do not consider the following as 'advertising'. I feel, having been challenged, that I have to justify why the sites I chose are worthy of inclusion, and to do them justice I need to ensure you understand what they are about.

Esprit Fact File and Lotus Esprit World are broadly similar in their origins and ambitions, and are complementary. Both were started by individuals keen to share and expand upon the information they had accumulated when purchasing and maintaining thier own cars. It's fair to say that Lotus Esprit World has grown considerably in size, but the breadth of content is truly remarkable - full specifications for every model variant produced, pictorial 'how to' guides, an archive of contemporary road tests, a regularly updated news page for information of interest to the Esprit owner, and much more. As perhaps the ultimate mark of a quality information resource, the engineers at Lotus publicly acknowledge that they use the site for reference purposes.

The Lotus Esprit Forum is one of several discussion groups that exist for the model and the marque. What differentiates it and elevates it as a useful resource is the fact that it has over 4,000 members worldwide, amongst them many current Lotus staff, and that it is sub-divided to seperate chat and event talk from technical discussions. It has built up an enviable archive of 'howto' threads which are available for the benfit of all. Mike Kimberley, CEO of Group Lotus, is an occasional but enthusiastic contributor. It is estimated the the Forum accounts for owners of more than a third of all Esprits ever built. This is a resource operated for and by owners and enthusiasts; just two of its achievements in the few short years it has been running were the widely-reported secret rebuilding of an Esprit belonging to a member with a debilitating medical condition, and the organising of the first Esprit-only factory event, which attracted 100 cars and owners from the UK, Europe, and North America.

Reading through wikipedia's guidelines on External Links, I see that any external links should be "restricted to the most relevant and helpful", that sites linked to should be "relevant to the content of the article (useful, helpful, informative, factual, etc.)", and include sites that "cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to ... amount of detail". I believe that both Lotus Esprit World and Lotus Esprit Forum satisfy these criteria.

Both sites could attract criticism: both are supported by either advertising or a paid-membership subsection, and a forum, by its very nature requires a user to register and sign-in to participate. The advertising, where used, is not intrusive, and the paid-membership sectons merely complement the freely-available reference, technical, or 'how-to' information in order to financially support the hosting of these sites. However, weighing these considerations against the wealth of information and appeal that both sites contain, it is clear that they are an invaluable resource for the Esprit enthusiast and owner.

Fundamentally, if Wikipedia is to maintain credibility for its content, shouldn't such useful sites as these be openly acknowledged and linked to?

:lol:


Dan

"He who dies with the most toys wins..."

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hi All,

we can report the repeated deltion of links for arbitration by the wiki adminstration . I believe that GreLocock falls foul of LInk Vandalism.

Check out wiki rules on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adm...ainst_vandalism

We should contact the wiki user and state he is vadalising the Esprit wiki page and ask him to cease his edits. If he refuses we can take it to the administrators for resolution.

Alex

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Greg Locock (ex Lotus engineer)

Can this be confirmed? Perhaps a member of the M100 team disgruntled at the return to mid-engine, RWD....

E.

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LOL calm down dear - it's only a website :lol:

Thanks Mum :whistle:

Oh - Mark, don't think there's any slight intended on your lotusespritturbo site by not including it in 'the campaign' - I haven't included it in the list as I wanted to establish a point of principle with "the big three" that can then be leveraged for other info sites. You have a great site there, one that I re-visit regularly :D


Dan

"He who dies with the most toys wins..."

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Can this be confirmed? Perhaps a member of the M100 team disgruntled at the return to mid-engine, RWD....

E.

Have a look at his responses on the 'talk' page for the article... he doesn't seem to know that the Lotus-designed and Lotus-built engine that was installed in Lotus cars used carbs in its naturally aspirated form - he thinks they should have been marketed as 'EFI' rather than referred to as NA... :lol: I wonder if his engineering was limited to innovative cup-holders? :whistle:

Neal - Mark - good points, well presented. I'd forgotten to include this but tbh was running out of ink in my keyboard...


Dan

"He who dies with the most toys wins..."

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Dan

Well done boi! A well writen and balanced argument....lawer by any chance!!! :whistle:

Man this guy is an arse head


 

"Belief is the enemy of knowing" - Crrow777

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Nope, Dans a bee Keeper (yes honest). A well educated man obviously (thats gotta be worth some more honey!) :whistle:


Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

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