free hit
counters
S4 Not Producing boost over 60 KPA HELP! - Page 3 - Induction/Turbo/Chargecooler/Manifold/Exhaust - The Lotus Forums Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
greekmix

S4 Not Producing boost over 60 KPA HELP!

Recommended Posts

Hi Mark,

I'm not too familiar with non-Lotus cars ;o) but AFAIK the double port capsules are used in different brand applications where the boost control is done with a two circuit setup.

For example the 2nd port is also MAP-biased and with a 2nd solenoid in this circuit this controlls high boost or overboost situations.

Cheers

Marcus

Marcus: Is that setup supposed to run one vac line before the throttle bodies and one line after the throttle bodies so that it opens with gear changes so as not to cause compressor surge?

Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

this is the plumbing for external 2 port

I belive the integrated wastegate should have the same setup

never used one so not sure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys you are right about the setup of this capsule.

I have made many many phone calls and 100 emails with the supplier (WC engineering in USA) and John is positive that this is the right capsule to use. ( I dont agree with that any more)

I was told that the second port is not used for the application on the esprit however the last diagram posted by tony94s4 is showing a complete connection.

With the esprit the second port is not used and can stay as is with no connection.

However I must also say that John from WC had provided 2 diffrent capsule on both stage 1 and stage 2 turbos that we tested.

Both had the same fault not producing boost so now I suspect that this type of capsule is not right for the apllication at all.

I have spoken now to WC with the results but I am not getting any concrete feedback as to why this has happened. After all the fault was created by the turbo assebly which was supposed to be tested on the bench to work on the car as I was also told with no modification at all...... not the case as proven.

Never the less this will now give me the opportunity to test the famouse stage 1 turbo housing characteristics as the setup of the car has stayed the same.

SO Stock turbo VS WC Stage 1 ceramic ball bearing turbo ..... results will be available when the dyno tests are completed.

ROAD TEST

I had now done some road tests with the freescann running testing the the S4s chip received by WC which I believe its the stock unit from the S4s and also I have pluged in the chip #6 from Marcus.

Unfortunalty I cant go any faster that 3rd gear flat out on the road as I am risking loosing my licence however the freescan showed me that the chip #6 produced boost up to 1.21 Bar to 1.1 with the S4s. and I have also a feeling the turbo has a delay coming on but all that will be proven right or wrong on the dyno.

I will be supprised if I see that the turbo was a waste of time to upgrade and very dissapointed due to the time and money spend for this upgrade.

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

like I said not sure about integrated 2 port waste gate never used one,

on the external waste gate I use on my other turbo cars u can use

only 1 port the lower one if u whant to use spring pressure rated boost

if u whant to go higher then spring rated pressure u hook the top port

with a controler

so donno if this aplies to integrated setup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Tony,

Yes the 2 port capsules usually have a too weak spring inside for the 4-Cyl. Esprit application. This weak spring simply will not hold the wastegate flap (=inside the turbo) fully closed.

From our experience with the WC-turbo (on Olaf's car) it actually has a delay ... more delay than a good (=new) stock turbo ... but this is not unusual, because the stock turbine has to drive a much bigger compressor wheel. The one ball bearing (its not bad to have one :rofl: ) can not compensate for that, IMHO.

In mid and high mid revs it will flow fairly well though ... :)

Cheers

Marcus

Guys you are right about the setup of this capsule.

Both had the same fault not producing boost so now I suspect that this type of capsule is not right for the apllication at all.

I had now done some road tests with the freescann running testing the the S4s chip received by WC which I believe its the stock unit from the S4s and also I have pluged in the chip #6 from Marcus.

I have also a feeling the turbo has a delay coming on but all that will be proven right or wrong on the dyno.

Edited by Paula&Marcus

Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marcus,

Thanks for the tip, I will reserve my opinion till the right day.

So far I am a little dissapointed because of the wrong wastegate used not once but two times for this application.

This has cost me on delivery back and forwards to US another Turbocharger .

I wish I knew about this fault before but I suppose I didn not wanted to accept the fault game from the turbo assebly especially when I send it back for full check and replacement....

I am providing all this information to JOHN WC so he can rectify it... so far I dont have any feedback as to why this has happened.... So I would like to find someone else using the famous WC capsule to compare notes if I can in the future..

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Tony,

The WC turbo on Olaf's car had the correct capsule right from the start... IIRC it came this way from WC.

I personally also donot understand why he changed this ... he actually changed it badly to the worse side :-(

Cheers

Marcus

Edited by Paula&Marcus

Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The two port design looks like it could hold as much boost as you want... when setup with a regulator... that's about the only reason I can think of to use the 2 port design... Again... as I pointed out before... I've never seen one before, but looking at the diagram... I would imagine it can handle any amount of boost if properly setup. However, modification free -- it ain't.


Modifying esprit's.. now that's fun..

PS... I AM NOT A CERTIFIED MECHANIC.. I Have chosen to help those in need, in the past and must not be construed as being a certified technician.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dyno results from the stage 1 WC turbo are very disappointing. :smoke:((((

I will start a new topic for anyone else to follow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen after any months of hard work and lost of money paid to experts I have finally got some results for people who want to do the same.

Before I post the results If anyone like to see the upgrade stages please visit here. http://www.lotusesprit.com.au/s4engine.htm

my aim is to keep the enginee internals as stock as possible so I worked on the chips available and air induction including the pipe which was the only upgrade making the HP we were after.

The car produced close to 250 BHP with the stock Turbocharger but all the external upgrades available at the time as mentioned above.

However replacing the Turbocharger with the WC stage 1 produced some unexpected results.

No we only had a huge delay on boost which makes the car pathetic on the road but we lost more than 20bhp.

If anyone knows how to get those HP back please let me know.

Verdict is then to stay with the original unit as it produced fantastic response on the Dyno and road.

post-2247-1207550456.jpg

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can u post #s if u dont mind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our first Dyno run with the new turbo and seconday injectors showed the engine running lean acrossall the rev range. At that stage we introduced a high pressure fuel pump to correct this issue.

Tony,

I copied the top part from ur upgrades page hope u dont mind,

I c on ur 1st run with the new turbo u run very lean

acros the rev range that means ur new turbo was pushing more air (more power)

or something else was wrong with rthe car,

with all the problems u had on ur previous post

dont get me wrong but the money u spend on experts r u sure they r experts,

did they do any data loging (free scan) to c map readings, knock timing, iat, etc?

something does not sound right to me, with that turbo u should get much more flow

on mid & top, not sure on the spool up, little bigger compressor wheel, cliped turbine

wheel will slow it down, but upgrated bearing should speed it up some, what I am trying

to say ur response shouldnt be slower then couple hundred rpm to make it that noticable

or undriveble

on street

u can chat with Artie great guy he did lots of upgrades and uses same turbo I belive

and he past the 300whp mark recently or search dyno to see his slip

good luck with ur project

tony

Edited by Tony94S4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tony,

The original was defiantly running lean , with the stage 1 turbo car was running reach and all of my results have gone to WC engineering and also I am speaking with Dermot from UK who has put the freescan book together.

If none of them know how to read the information then I am in a bad position. I have all the data in the world available and no one can tell me why this turbo is behaving like that or what we should do next.

The people in Australia who tested the car on the dyno are telling me the turbo is not good enough or well matched to the ECM.

This is a good invitation for product comparison since everywhere I look everyone claims to have the best product on the market.

Well I am inviting those to provide the product since we have now use the car of mine to support their claims.

For some reason the after sales and support is missing when the product does not as good as it should

This is a classic example ......... $$$$ down the drain, I hope I am wrong but all the tests I have done are clearly showing true figures.

I am also using the original Wastegate capsule as the one I received never performed correctly so we are seeing the performance of the turbo design on the same car.

If you want to catch up with this fault I have a seperate topic on it on this forum...... This fault was fun to find..

Please tell Artie to contact me as I don

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bibs has been down a similiar path previously. See this thread.......

http://www.lotusespritforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=12932

I know he experienced similiar frustrations regarding analysing the benefits of aftermarket turbos, and in the end he stuck with the factory option. I've tried to keep up with him and can vouch for how fast his car is!


Regards

Mat

post-1-0302470001278592957.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mat.

Yes I am aware of that topic but no one is comparing the product right. Again sales speach from all over the place.

I suggest if anyone has a product to test and compare please speak up!!! I have the car ready to put back to the dyno and resolve this myths of what works what not?

The progress of this project has been documented quite well and I dont think we have a lemmon car ruther bad product matching!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tony

The point I was hoping that would come across from that thread is that it is the manufacturers of these items that need to provide you with the answers you are looking for. Your question is exactly the same as the one Bibs asked, and I fear you will get the same response. I can feel your frustration coming through...............


Regards

Mat

post-1-0302470001278592957.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mat,

The manufacturer has this information first hand and I am still waiting for responce. However I must say this issue with boost and turbo performance started last november (5 months ago) John from WC help me to fault find the issue and he pointed me to every other part on the car eg: ECM, Knock Sensor, Fuel Injectors, Chip used, exchast Pipe, boost valve wirring and many other parts which were replace with no luck fixing the initial fault as the car was not boosting pass .6bar. after replacing the turbo only.....

After all the fault was found with the turbo capsule assebly which was quaranted to work as it was adjutsed and checked my the experts.

So since I am not getting a responce from the manufactorer and have better luck with some people in this forum I decided to also communicate with you the forum.

Let me tell you that a capsule worth 200 dollars cost me over 2000 and lalso lost my original state of my turbocharger since all of the parts were send back to USA 2 times over.

So now I have a turbo stage 1 that is not performing and an original turbo made by two turbochargers as some of the part were found damaged due to shipping to USA.

I hope you get the point

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tony,

I personally also am sure that something is not quite right with your engine. Your upgrade list looks fine and also was done in the same or very similar way by many people and its prooven. Its definitely not normal that your engine produces less performance than stock. With a 100% fully operational stock engine + Chip #6 you should at least see something around 300+ crank-HP peak. With an additional higher flow turbo and a good free flowing exhaust it definitely is even more ...

I bet that somewhere in your modification path something went wrong which is responsible for that poor performance.

Could be just everything ... beginning with a burned valve or faulty piston/liner to a faulty sonsor ... could be really everything.

Good luck finding the fault.

Marcus

Edited by Paula&Marcus

Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marcus,

Thank you for your feedback.

The freescan is very normal to me but I am not an expert on every line.

Its very hard to believe out of a sudden the car developed burned valves or piston since the compression is at 150 to 155 psi.

Most sensors have been replaced and freescan is showing normal.

However if anyone can tell me how do we test for any of this I will be happy to continue searching. Once again I have a feeling that is I put back the original turbo I will go back to the HP we started from so that tell me that the engine may not be at fault and the turbo is just not doing its job.

So far everyone here does not see a fault with the car as its sounds and runs very normal ... no smoke or backfire of anything that shows evidence of major parts failure.

Do you think a liner or a valve can cause a loss of 70 plus HP????? this is massive ....

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tony,

You say that your compression is fine ... so its not likely a liner/piston/valve issue ... pehhhhhhhhhwwwww that was close

Of course one burned valve would be a loss around 80 HP (= one cylinder not working = 1/4 less power in theory) ....

How about a valve timing issue ???

Are you 100% sure that your cam-pulleys are spot on in the correct location and no tooth skipped ????

... any more input from somebody else ? I'm 100% sure that something is not quite right here ...

Marcus

Edited by Paula&Marcus

Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you checked all your vacuum lines and elbows? Just one small leak could cause a significant loss.


DanR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marcus,

The car has a major service just before we started these upgrades. however I am unable to find someone who can check all these at this time but I am sure it will happen.

if the timing was out even by a tooth the car would not run properly the same goes for one cylinder not working right if any of these was not right the car would not hold a stady idle and would run unstable as I am told... its hard to believe that after just a turbo replacing all that has gone wrong ... at least I was expecting the same power from the stage 1 turbo as the stock unit.

Remember how many items I replaced due to no boost and at the end the fault was found at the turbo assebly. The last thing I want is to pay loads of money for someone to pull down the engine to check timming and valves and find nothing. I first need to prove that the rest of the car is ok before I go down that path again.

I hope you get my point here for unessesary work...

Edited by greekmixS4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frustrating as it may seem Tony, there appear to be so many variables here that if it were me, I'd put EVERYTHING back to stock, check the car runs fine, and then put all your mods on one at a time. I think that's your surest way of identifying what the prob is here. Otherwise you're just going to get a load of suggestions and it's going to be chance whether you can sort it.


Regards

Mat

post-1-0302470001278592957.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mean the MAP-pressure lines. No vacuum !!

Have you checked all your vacuum lines and elbows? Just one small leak could cause a significant loss.

Marcus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matk.

Putting the car back to stock will take some time and more importantly more dyno runs at every time I touch it to show where we are at.

I have already done over 100 runs at $50 a run I will be asking the impossible.

To me the simple change I need to make, is to go back to the original turbo and see if I can get to the 250 BHP I was on before then I will know I am back to normal. if this does not happen then I have an internal issue which definately will suprise me.

As you can all appreciate this is a 9 months plus project which should lasted only for 3 months if the right advice was there in the first place.

I hope I get some time and the right help this time to complete this task.

What we need to remember that the car had only a turbo change before it lost the power... its impossible to have an engine failure when the car is not used. All the evidence pointing at that and I wish I never pulled my original turbo apart to prove this point.

So here I go again.... wish me luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...