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Okay... just butting in to toss this article into the mix...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/351903_needle20.html

Gives a bit of credit to the economic consiracy folks regarding high fuel cost. I mean, if two grease monkeys in a garage in Alabama can do better with a 50's Opel in the 1970's than the "smart" university folks, that go to school for this stuff, can do in the 21st century... the current state of education sucks worse than previously thought! Bottom line? IF the right people wanted somthing that could shut the greenie global warming politicos up... the something would have been sold a long time ago. :D

Cameron

Edited by Autocross7

"If you feel that you are in total control of the car, well, your just not driving fast enough". Jimmy Clark

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Overall it's very bad, ultimately crippling for the economy but some B) are doing OK out of it in the short term...but for how long is another question. Pulled back to support at $130 today and then bounced. The trend is still looking strongly up but has pulled a long way from the medium term average. There will perhaps be a pullback shortly as prices are getting ahead of themselves, almost bubble like in their hysteria but I expect the uptrend to continue for now. Demand has been rising, supply is not being increased to meet it (long term maybe a good thing - do we want to run out of oil THAT quick?) and the dollar/US economy is weak. When price breaks above $135 pulls back to there then continues upwards I think we'll need to get more worried.

Boring finance talk over. We're all jiggered.

Talking of tax on cars, did anyone see Question Time last night when the Lib Dem representative put forward the idea of lower tax on fueld but road tax of up to

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the simple fact is oil is a finite resource, opec admitted peak oil 5 yearsa ago, from then on it costs more to get out of the ground than its worth to sell it hense the increase in prices.

the plain truth that they are just to afraid to admit is that oil is running out. period!

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Once oil reaches a certain price it will finally become viable to extract from less favourable places such as the oil sands of Canada. It won't reduce price but will be a further supply.

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...Or not. There have been several newly released (more like leaked) research results (one actually by Exxon Mobile that took 15 years) that suggest and even support the idea that oil is in fact an "Earth Renewable Resource". In other words, like many other minerals and substances, the Earth actually makes oil and not the dead dino's as previously postulated by some.

Either way, there are some facts that cannot be escaped that may not be a direct cause of price hikes, but certainlty do not help. for example, 1) Alternative fuels. Listen, ethanol is a bust. it has been from the get go. total crap from an economic point of view when the overall impact is considered. But, sooner or later there will most prob. be an acceptable alternative fuel source. Given that other solutions are not far off and (see my above post) the technology to better and more has been surpressed, the oil boys in the desert know their days are numbered. Gotta make the $$$ now! 2) At least with regard to the USA, the dumb assed EPA will not approve newer more efficient refinery building. This in fact is no clear than in my home town where Mobile took down a refinery that was older, with plans to rebuild the new one on the same spot, and got blocked and prevented from building the new more efficient refinery AFTER the old one was gone. This makes fuel production harder. So, fuel, not oil, is the real issue in the USA. 3) the dip wads in DC keep devaluing the once mighty USD. Why? So China can have a better trade balance. Great plan! (dip wads)... so the USD is not worth as muc in Saudi just like Europe and the actual cost goes up with the value of the dollar dropping! Simple math here...

Anyway, it all spins and spins... and ironically, right after we all go back to horses and donkeys... oil will be proven to be an Earth renewable resource! Because irony has a will of it's own!

Cameron

"If you feel that you are in total control of the car, well, your just not driving fast enough". Jimmy Clark

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Once oil reaches a certain price it will finally become viable to extract from less favourable places such as the oil sands of Canada. It won't reduce price but will be a further supply.

they already have..... 2006

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/20/...in1225184.shtml

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Yep, there were idiots putting petrol in anything that would (or some cases not) hold liquid. lots of idiots seemed to think any oil based plastic container would be fine, then found they melted, others used items that didn't seal not realising the vapour would just continue to be produced and flood the area they put them.

Andy

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If we all boycotted a particular brand of petrol that brand would be forced to lower their prices and the rest would follow.

It would be very interesting to see how this would play out, but I must admit, to get something of this magnitude organized would be extremely difficult.

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Further to my post about fuel pricing over here, our news just showed some numbers and I was correct about the fuel excise, fixed per litre. However, after the excise is added (1st tax) then the govt applies our 10% GST (2nd tax) on top of that. This bit is variable constantly and taxes us on the already applied tax (excise).

One of the guys on the interview said until govt's did something we would continue to see the international price trends we were seeing now.

A bit off topic, but this is also one of the stingers with importing a car from UK First we pay the car price in UK. Then we ship it to Oz. Then we pay customs duty on the car and the shipping cost. All of this then attracts the 10% GST.

Tax on a tax.

Bless their little cotton socks... :)

Edited by ramjet

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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Same system here too.

I used to get stuff from Hong Kong and you'd be taxed on tax, everyone has to have their bit of the cake you know - still worked out cheaper than buying UK.

The way it's worded is fuel DUTY and Value added TAX, everything is VATable at 17.5% in the UK but certain things have a duty which is a fixed unit cost - but effectivly it is all tax.

Your also right in that governments around the world (not just enemy of the week : Gordon Brown) are not putting enough pressure on OPEC and other countries for the way they manage fuel.

America in particular came under a LOT of critisism because they are keeping their own production down and importing more - the idea being is that they obviously hope to dry up the world's recources before their own, sound tactics but doesn't make them terribly popular. They also have a habbit of buying massive stock loads just like currency - lets face it it's a good idea, you would have made ~ 20% interest on this comodity over the past 6 months - store loads of fuel, let the price rocket and then re-flood the market.

The end of the day world demand has soared, OPEC say they can't increase production to meet demand....something that is in high demand = higher prices (simple economics)

What our so called leaders should be doing is look at ways to get these companies to increase demands instead of building Dubai and posting record profits for their shareholders - for it's the companies that are the true bad eggs in this story. By blaming the wrong people (petrol stations, Mr Brown) all that's happening is the blame is being deflected and the problem will get worse.

The Govnt. could lower duty on fuel but remember it's risen under inflation anyways under the current dictatorship, you take it of petrol you also have to put it back onto somewhere else to balance the books - plus you lot would all be moaning and blaming the tax man in 2 months time when it goes back up again and everyones still paying record high prices at the pump. I HATE fuel costs but even I wouldn't cut duty on it because the gains will be wiped out in a matter of days and you'll be back to sqr. 1 - I think it'll be frozen again in October.

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Yep, there were idiots putting petrol in anything that would (or some cases not) hold liquid. lots of idiots seemed to think any oil based plastic container would be fine, then found they melted, others used items that didn't seal not realising the vapour would just continue to be produced and flood the area they put them.

Andy

The person in the article that fills plastic gas containers is in the lawn mowing business. The gas bank is a station that allows a person to prepay fuel at current price of payment and allows you to draw the fuel gallons stored at the station no matter if the prices increases from the prepaid rate. According to the article there are 400 people that locked in at $.99/gal and bought several thousand dollars worth fuel that they have been drawing against. 2300 people locked in at less than $2/gal. People draw galloms of gas on their prepaid account till the fuel account runs out. I know one person that bought three thousand gallons at the $1.50/gal rate. He withdraws about 20 gallons a week from his account.

Edited by CNH
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If we all boycotted a particular brand of petrol that brand would be forced to lower their prices and the rest would follow.

It would be very interesting to see how this would play out, but I must admit, to get something of this magnitude organized would be extremely difficult.

I've had this thought as well. If everybody boycotted Exxon until their prices dropped to $2.50, I bet prices would come down. Even if they didn't come down, it would at least make me feel good :)

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When petrol first hit the outrageous price of over 1 dollar a litre, there was an email that went around saying that all motorists should boycott one brand of fuel station for a day. It appears that over here in western Oz, the petrol companies need to move what they refine every day. If everyone boycotted one of the biggies for one day, the stations would still have full tanks the next morning and the refineries would not be able to deliver and with ships waiting offshore to unload, there would be the cost of no sales one day, no production the next with wages to pay and demurrage on ships waiting in harbour. I am not sure about all the facts of it, but suffice to say it never got off the ground as everyone said stuff it and filled up anyway.

Don't know what happens over in UK but we regularly see price jumps while a station is still supplying fuel (bought at a lower wholesale price in their tanks) but I have never seen the price drop until the storage tanks are emptied at the station.

All we know is that when they stop making this, we will be properly, properly sad.Jeremy Clarkson on the Esprit.

Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has them, some just stink more than others.

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In the UK the proce rises are generally more comercial decisions re timing rather than directly linked to the price of oil.

If one station goes up, the ones in the adjacent are follow as they don't need to keep their price down to stay competative.

With the duty rises (which account for most of the pump price we pay) they go up on the night of the dutyb rise as duty is calculated at time of retail sale, not wholesale purchase.

Andy

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How's this for inflation Pulled in to a petrol station in the south of england 116.9 filled car up,walking back to the car noticed the the price had changed to 117.9 in the space of filling the car and getting to the pay desk and they say inflation only 3%

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Interesting debate on 5 live today where people phoned in to give their views on the price and what should be done. Interesting to not that after an hour every call had been against the Govts high tax policy on fuel. After this time the announcer stated we do get the odd message in favour but mostly 90% are against it.

However. Despite this the next 2 hours were a 50/50 split of live calls people saying save the planet put fuel up even more (mostly living in London I noticed) and people saying how it's ruining their lives.

Is it just me or is that a bit suspect in the fact that maybe our national radio/tv station was all of a sudden giving the minority the same amount of air time as the majority?

They also kept talking about "Global warming" and it was interesting to note how radical the green tree huggers on were. One bloke told a poor disabled lady, who was complaining she could only go out once a week due to the cost of her fuel, to get food delivered by Tesco's. When the presenter pointed out she would then be housebound and virtually a prisoner in her own home the Arse stated that "We all have to make sacrifices in this". He very very nearly said "So what?" but changed his mind. (sort of a "so.....she should think about getting a family member to run her around")

The BBC started this well but totally gave it up to the PC bunch instead of relecting popular opinion.

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Brilliant - if you can thank Gordon Brown for one thing this is it :

He's gone to the oil producers and asked for more oil to help reduce prices !

But that isn't the reason....

His masterstroke is that he's blown the whole green issue out of the water ! :lol:

I can't believe everyone's new missed it today.

OK the green issue is they tax you to reduce the incentive to burn fossil (carbon based) fuels.

Ergo we want you to take public transport and take the cars off the road - that's the WHOLE idea of the Green ethos, burn less carbon fuels, no ?

So by going to the fuel bosses and begging for fuel what he's actually doing is sanctioning the use of burning MORE fuel !!

How does this even appear on a green agenda, no wonder the Greenies are furious about it.

Not only that but his chips are clearly on the table, basically he's said...

"Look boys pump some more fuel will ya, that'll bring the price down a bit and allow me to slip my 2p increase in and no-ones the wiser"

Or to put it simply help reduce the price so I can increase the tax !!

If this 2p increase is a Green tax (which, remember, they are flogging it as....make no mistake) the whole concept of it being introduced in retrospect to increased oil availability is totally counter productive !

This is my prob - all for green, hate waste, love efficiency & clever means of work - so instead of these stealth taxes lets get down to the real root of the problem now shall we ?

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I too heard the 5 live show this morning and was suprised by the amount of people on the govenments side, mostly the green lobby.

Now a simple fact, if the Govenments agenda for high fuel tax is a green one why then do we have a disorganised privatly owned expensive public transport system? Surely it should be state owned and virtually free to encourage more use of it? What ever happened to the School bus for example?

On the local news tonight there was a story about a village post office closing. Most of the village residents are elderly and do not have their own transport and if they do can ill afford to drive the 9 miles to the next post office, also no cheap buses either. Doesn't seem very green to me.

The truth of the matter seems to be Gordon is so keen to keep the oil flowing because it's the only thing that generates enough revenue to keep our benefit dependant country afloat, afterall the unemployed must have their 40 a day, Sky Plus and Xbox.

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Hi,

Did anyone watch the program on Monday night 'Life After People'. If all this nonsense about green house gases is to be believed, and man has done unrepairable damage to the planet, then it wasn't evident in this program. Basically they said if we all disappeared tomorrow, no trace of man would be here in 10,000 years, and the planet would have virtually gone back to how it was before we messed it up. The only thing evident would be the pyramids and possibly mount Rushmore because it's carved in stone, everything else gone. They even showed Chernobyl on there, and plants and wildlife is flourishing in the area, everything except man.

IMHO I don't believe we are changing things that much, I'm not saying we haven't, but not as much as it's made out. OK things have changed, but we only know this because of technology, what about the ice ages man has lived through, who was to blame for them? There weren't no cars then and the population wasn't what it is now, no one blamed all the log fires producing gases, the green issues are just a reason to tax us. I agree with preserving the planet, how can cutting down trees that absorb carbon dioxide and produce oxygen be good if we are replacing them with oil planets for eco fuels, that just doesn't make sense.

All I know is that if fuel keeps going up at the rate it is, every month or even fortnightly, then I will soon have to look at other transport to get to work, moped here we come, as my bloody employer won't pull their finger out and give us the opportunity to work from home.

Life After People

Owen.

Edited by OwenGT3
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My local Garage was 121.9 for Diesel last week (my local garage is a supermarket). This week it's at 124.9. Where the heck did that come from?

How many days was that? Filled up there today at 125.9!!!! I give up. :lol:

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http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

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130.9 for me today :lol: and that was after bypassing one at 132.9.

Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk - that will teach us to keep mouth shut!

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