S4s clutch problem

[andecorp]

I had my 2nd gear replaced on my '96 S4s.

While there, the clutch plate was replaced as well.

The part came from SJ, correct genuine part, so should be no issues there.

The job was done by Lotus dealer, where the tech is ex-Lotus factory, so there should be no issues there either.

However, now that it is all fitted, it is almost impossible to select gears and 1 out of 3 tries results with a gear crunch.

The dealer reckons is because the plate is too thick. But SJ sent me a standard plate, and the plate only measures 1mm more in thickness than the used plate it replaced.

Also, the bearing is making a wirring noise until the clutch pedal is pressed, even for a tiny bit.

As well, through the clutch pedal, I feel a great deal of vibration, like feeling everything that is happenening in the gear box.

The clutch pedal feels lighter than before the clutch was replaced.

Now, the dealer reckons it is the fault of the plate I supplied, so they want to fit one of theirs (at a greatly inflated price) and charge me for another full days worth of labor to replace the plate.

Years ago on my '89, I had the same issue with the clutch when it was replaced, and it was fixed in a minute with the mechanic getting under the back of the car and fiddling with something.

What suggestions do any of you have?

SJ says the part is correct (I have no reason to doubt them at all). Maybe the plate was fitted wrong? After all, if the tech has been building the Esprits new at the factory following a set of instructions, it doesn't nbecessarily mean that he can fix used cars that have problems that need to be identified?

While it was there, a leak in the clutch cylinder was fixed as well as the cylinder re-sleeved. Also, leaking drive shaft was fixed too.

Any help would be appreciated as I just want the car back on the road as it's been too many weeks all up now.

[andecorp]

I also forgot to mention, that the Lotus tech kept grinding the gears when he was trying to put the car in reverse until I told him that he has to put it in 1st first, just like in any other Esprit I've seen out there. He did that, and of course reverse didn't grind, but it did get me concerned about his ability, because it is common knowledge that 1st has to be selected before reverse as there's no syncro in reverse.

[DanR]

Were you previously in Perth because I see you're now in Melbourne? If Melbourne you could try Steve Taylor at the Elan Factory in Boronia Heights. Might find him a lot more aware about Esprits that the mechanic you've described. Check him out also at http://www.elanfactory.com.au

Edited November 5, 2005 by DanR1201

[andecorp]

Were you previously in Perth because I see you're now in Melbourne? If Melbourne you could try Steve Taylor at the Elan Factory in Boronia Heights. Might find him a lot more aware about Esprits that the mechanic you've described. Check him out also at http://www.elanfactory.com.au

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought that he was specialising mainly in Elans.

Yes, I am in Melb now. I might just see him this week.

My current experience is with Zagame's (Melbourne Lotus).

Also, Paul from Team GP Lotus was no good either. Good mechanic, did past work for me very well, now screwes me around everytime I make a booking. Car is booked in, I take it there and his shop is locked up and he doesn't turn up for hours. He's done that to me a few times (I guess I'm a hard learner). Last time was last week, that is why I took the car straight to Melbourne Lotus, after he hid in the toilet again (seriously, he does that as I caught him doing it once!!) who charge twice the hourly rate and still can't fit the car properly.

I just thought about something - assuming the clutch plate is wrong as they say (it is not as it's a genuine Valeo), what the hell where they doing installing it on the car?? Didn't they measure it if they thought it was too big? And if they measured it, why did they install it? If they didn't measure it, again, it shows their incompetence to install it in the first place, if it's the wrong one.

I'll be seeing them first thing Mon morning with service notes in hand and I'll make them adjust everything in front of me exactly to the service notes specs. I've already paid them $2,500 for the job, and the car is still not running.

[DanR]

Andre, your dramas do not surprise me. Dealers tend to only work on new cars doing basic stuff like oil changes. Usually with lots of apprentices to cut costs. Many of them graduate without even having rebuilt an engine or gearbox at work, lol. What's Zagame's main line these days, Citroen?

I was in Melbourne for a week in August and tried every second day or so but Team Lotus was continually shut and I could see through the windows that nothing had moved.

I haven't done an Esprit clutch myself, but 1mm diff between a new and worn clutch plate seems normal. I suspect either the clutch/slave need proper bleeding or the adjuster on the slave cylinder needs re-adjustment. I recently repaired my slave and found that with the front wheels elevated on 15cm ramps, I could bleed it better than with the car level. Raises the bleed nipple slightly higher for those last air bubbles escaping.

I think you'll find Steve and his offsider (Terry? who was an ex-Williams technician) know their stuff.

Edited November 5, 2005 by DanR1201

[glynherron]

When I first bought my 1995 S4s, the clutch started slipping. I did all the ork myself as I don't like spending money and if I f**k it up (which I sometimes do), then I've only got myself to blame!

I tried to source the replacement clutch, but wastold from various contacts that it is a dealer part only (Valeo rep would not give any info at all). So I would have thought that th part that Steve @ SJ supplied you would be exactly the same as the one that your garage is suggesting as it would have come from Lotus.

The flywheel has a machined step in it. Which I think is 1mm. Did the garage check that it was wihin spec? The release of the clutch is marginal and this can cause problems.

When I refited mine, the clutch would not disengage. I tried setting the adjustment as per the service notes, and no joy. Then tried different settings still to no avail. What I actally did without realising it was to bend the clutch fork because one of the adjustment settings I tried gave too much movement to the fork. It physically could not move any further, so bent the arm.

So I removed the gearbox agin, and got the flyheel machined, fitted a new clutch fork, and it disengaged (and still does), but not with the service notes settings, as the angles inside the bellhousing change due to the machining.

Thinking about your comment on th vibration, this sounds like the pressure plate fingers (that the release bearinf presses against) are being pushed too far and could be hiting on the friction disk. This would cause the vibration (and noise?) and stop the clutch from disengaging. I remember this happening on the setting that that I tried tht bent the clutch fork !!

If you can, remove the boot floor, and using a torch, look through the apature in the bellhousing (where the old timing pointer used to be). Get someone the slowly press the clutch pedal down. You should notice the pressure coming off the friction disk (between the 2 friction lining is a wavy spring thing), and they separate slightly. If they separate and then close back up, then the adjustmen it too much; if they don't separate there's not enough adjustment.

There's a lot to take in, and I don,t kno if it will make any sense, so feel free to ask.

HTH

Glyn

[mchlrodrigues]

Basics to have checked out in the following order:

1. Adjustment. Ensure that there is 3mm of free play between the adjuster on the release fork and the pushrod (pull the fork towards the slave cylinder to compress the piston completely & verify play between pushrod and recess in threaded adjuster).

2. Is the clutch disengaging fully? Check for air in the line post M/C rebuild. You could have clutch drag.

3. M/C footvalve. Notorius for leaking. Results in inadequate travel at slave cylinder and clutch drag. Solution: fit Girling rebuild kit and rebleed system.

The release bearing sound could be that you have no free play at the clutch. When you depress the clutch pedal you could be over compressing the clutch diaphragm which will result in shifting difficulties just as if there were clutch drag.

[andecorp]

Thanks for all the help.

Well, got the car back today.

The reason why it didn't change gears is because the settings where not checked and they were not in specs, of course.

This morning I went there with service notes in hand, requested that everything be in the service notes specs, and guess what, it works fine now!

What I am not impressed about is about the fact that I got them to measure the old clutch plate, and it was 6.5mm which is more than usable, and just using some simple maths, at the same rate of wear, I still had another good 15,000 to do on that clutch plate, which means 3 years for me. So there was no reason what to speak of to change it.

At least now I know that according to my driving, a clutch will last me 45,000, or 9 years at my driving rate, and I do track work too.

At least I am happy to have the car back.

Everything works fine and it shifts the way it should (with a bit more bite due to the new clutch plate) but I still have thew whirring noise from the bearing, but the tech reckons he couldn't hear it beause he's partially deaf, so he didn't know what I was talking about...

I'll try and do the checks you guys say and if no luck, I'll take it to the ElanFactory mentioned above. I am worried about the noise being an indication that something is not right, and some type of damage being done to something. The noise was definetely not there before the new clutch.

Could it be the fact that the clutch plate is new but the bearing is old, so until it 'beds' in, like new brake pads on old discs, it will make that noise?

[glynherron]

Glad to here your mobile, but I would have thought that the dealer would have been accountable if something is still not quite right - what if its something inside the g/box and not the clutch? Will taking it anywhere else void any warrenty that they were offering (g/box)?

With regard to the deaf technician - record the sound and amplify it back to him !!!

Keep us posted with your progress,

Glyn

keep on S4s'in

[andecorp]

Glad to here your mobile, but I would have thought that the dealer would have been accountable if something is still not quite right - what if its something inside the g/box and not the clutch?  Will taking it anywhere else void any warrenty that they were offering (g/box)?

With regard to the deaf technician - record the sound and amplify it back to him !!!

Keep us posted with your progress,

Glyn

keep on S4s'in

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, since they were happy to give the car back to me on Friday the way it was described in my first post, I don't trust them enough to find what's wrong and/or do the job properly.

I'll take it to someone that has been highly recomended. Previously mentioned Paul from TeamGP is phenomenal, if one can get hold of him.

If indeed there's something wrong with what the dealer did, I'll just send them a bill for the work to put it right with a lack of confidence letter. It's always proved very efficient in the past.

[lotus4s]

The release bearing should not be making noise and there is no "bedding in". Unless the bearing is going bad, the whirring you hear is the bearing contacting the pressure plate fingers and it can wear them to the point of causing the pressure plate to fail.

Check the slave rod freeplay as Michael suggested.

Do not let the morons who have worked on it touch it again....but get it looked at as soon as you can if you can't do it yourself.

Cheers,

Jim

[andecorp]

Well, got sick of incompetent people touching my car, so I personally adjusted everything, and now the shift is perfectly smooth, there's no wirring noise from the bearing and there's no vibration from the pedal.

All good.

BUT

If the car is stationary on an incline, either nose down or nose up, it is very hard to select 1st and it is impossible to select reverse without grinding. This happens only on a slope though.

Any ideas?

While proding around, I noticed some paint bubbling at the master clutch cylinder, so it's leaking. That's being replaced shortly. Could that cause the shifting problem on inclines???

[Paula&Marcus]

Well, got sick of incompetent people touching my car, so I personally adjusted everything, and now the shift is perfectly smooth, there's no wirring noise from the bearing and there's no vibration from the pedal.

All good.

BUT

If the car is stationary on an incline, either nose down or nose up, it is very hard to select 1st and it is impossible to select reverse without grinding. This happens only on a slope though.

Any ideas?

While proding around, I noticed some paint bubbling at the master clutch cylinder, so it's leaking. That's being replaced shortly. Could that cause the shifting problem on inclines???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes you are right, your master cylinder seems to be shot ...

Marcus

[andecorp]

Yes you are right, your master cylinder seems to be shot ...

Marcus

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Marcus