free hit
counters
HONDA to quit F1 - Lotus / Motoring / Cars Chat - The Lotus Forums - Lotus Community Partner #ForTheOwners Jump to content


IGNORED

HONDA to quit F1


Recommended Posts


Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
  • Replies 27
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Anyone else like me, thinking that there might actually not be an F1 at some point?

Ten years ago i'd watch every single race from start to finish, even planning my sunday

around it. Nowadays missing a race is not the end of the world, race outcomes are decided

and discussed over boardroom tables some weeks after the finish. Punishments and penalties

of race incidents never seem to go to the right party. The cars are now limited and made as

much the same as possible. The big names throw in the towel.

All of the above take away from what it once was. IMO if Ferarri and just one other top five team

were to leave, that would be the end of it. It might just be me, but it seems fragile as feck right now.

Everything that was great about formula one is in a museum somewhere. The best and most charsmatic

drivers are either retired or have passed away. There is no car on the track today, or current driver that

will be as revered as the six wheel tyrell, the JPS cars, the Hesketh, the mansel williams, the 80's Mclarens

and the guys that drove them.

These will not ever be replaced by todays high tech all-the-same f1 cars, or the cry-like-a-baby young

breed of 'potential future champions' that either make the podium with a smile at the most, or just do

four seasons and vanish into the motoring press to review the latest VW saloon.

I think, and fear, we really are watching F1 die.

:welcome:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I happen to agree with your sentiments Paul. Unless they change the format and put the risk and danger back into the sport we might as watch biddies on scooters going round Silverstone.

I also think the bubble on and ever expanding more expensive throw money at it world is changing - 200 million x (9 teams os about 1.8 billion) to run 18 cars round a track on 16 days a year for about 2 hours each time is quite frankly ridiculous.

I like that nowegian banger racing philosophy that they had on TG in which if some asks to buy your car you have to sell it. this stops people investing tons of money in it. Instead they all spend about the same and so it becomes fairer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst I like and enjoy the fact that F1 is at the cutting edge of technology, I think it is a great shame that all the big successful teams are now bank rolled by large manufactures. The money involved is just plain stupid.

The sport is just not the same as it was before, and a lot of the creativity and fun has long gone.

Maybe the recession, and with Honda following Ford by walking away, will be the catalyst to shaking up the sport that in the long term, will make F1 Exciting again.

I have always thought that it would be great to see Lotus back in F1, but not in its current set up. Maybe this is the start of something that will now not only bring back great F1, but also Lotus..?

Strange days!

This book is guaranteed to NOT change your life…but it does mention a Lotus Esprit...

To enjoy this masterpiece, download Martin now. Simples!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Honda have decided to quit because they are basically self financing, not relying to heavily on outside sponsorship, and after seeing the news report yesterday morning on the BBC about 1000's of cars sitting on the docks at Long Beach I can understand why. Other teams could follow if their sponsors have a bad time in the global recession, how recession proof for example are Vodaphone and Red Bull? Do RBS still sponsor anyone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem you have in F1 is that Manufacturers have bought out many of the teams so instead of racing teams who are in it to race (and who's sole income is from racing) what you have is a group of racing teams whose sole income is selling cars and they use F1 as a marketing tool.

With the current global downturn I believe this will not be the last. By the beginning of the season you could see Toyota, Williams and Toro Rosso all missing from the list and maybe some more.

The reason this is such a big thing is that Honda actually use F1 to bring on Engineers, with a whole factory in Japan specially designed for this purpose. If they can back out, then the flood gates have been opened for those others that have been thinking it's too expensive (toyota especially)

Those that have been knocking Max Moseley take note. It's been him and him alone who has been warning of this! Manufacturers have had too much power in F1 and since many manufacturers have been involved the overall spend per team has trebled.

I say Cap spending at around

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first Grand Prix I ever went to

clark01_210762.jpg

Aintree 1962 being led and won by Jim Clark in a Lotus, that's a long time to be a fan, but in truth this had been coming ever since Max made them drill holes in engine covers, back in 1994. Every rule change has increased cost, he is a dictatorial, egocentric megalomaniac. Burnie seems to think he can continue to get unreasonable sums of money from promoters, ignorring the French GP, German GP, Belgian GP, British not far off, neither is Australia.

Now the world's biggest single market North America has no representation, no GP, Watkins Glenn was one of the greatest race tracks in the world, why would any major manufacturer want to be involved. Burnie has no concept of traditional markets or why they are vital to Formula One.

The irony is, it was simple, all the FIA had to do was issue a standard rear wing, much like IRL and leave the rest alone. 80% of testing is aerodynamics, 80% of the cost of the brakes is due to areodynamics. 80% of the spiraling cost is aerodynamics.

WE had ABS, Traction control, auto gearboxes, all the driver aids, we had close racing and competition, Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell, 11 world championships between them.

Death to Mosley wiplash !!

RIP formula One. :w00t:

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roger, I know you have it in for Moseley, but you are wrong on this. He's the lone voice amongst the FIA and in F1 (apart from the lower teams) who has been campaigning for lower costs. He has been 100% right as he stated over a year ago that too many manufacturers in the sport could be the death of it.

The bad guys her are Bernie and the top teams who spend like it's going out of fashion, making it impossible for small teams like Force India to compete and even teams like Honda to be competitive. Bernie's earnings are directly related to how much money is in the sport, so the bigger the spend the more he likes it!

Rediculous really!

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Louise has just told me she'd happily buy Jenson Button. Not sure where we'd keep him, though.

Isnt the apartment in the Northern Tower on your estate free or this where Lousie is still keeping her last bit of eye candy?

Edited by Alex --GT3--
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seriously, do you really need 1,000 people in a single F1 team?

It's a non-sport, everyone complains after the majority of races nowadays. It needs go get back to grass roots and remember it's there as entertainment, not business.

88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

For forum issues, please contact the Moderators. I will aim to respond to emails/PM's Mon-Fri 9-6 GMT. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I beg to differ, when you say "IS a lone voice" I'll kind of agree, no one should know better than him because my contention is the it is continual interference with the rules that has been a major contributor to the escalating costs, I agree that the teams have been their own worst enemies, testing limits have resulted in massive expenditure in wind tunnel investment. That was foreseeable, a little forethought, issue a standard wing, 80% of testing becomes superfluous.

If you are going to make rules at that level you need to be aware that there smarties out there who will weld up a subframe for the back of the gearbox just so the exhausts don't stick out too far.(Lotus 49)

Grooved tyres just made us more dependant on aerodynamics, V8 engines meant everyone had to go and design and develop one because the best configuration had turned out to be V10s. I could go on but Mosley has made F1 more expensive less competitive and no longer an exciting spectacle. My contention is Mosley should know it's unsustainable, he had major input into making it that way.

You're right when you say I have it in for him, I have since 1994, when he first made it clear he was arrogant idiot. He also represents everything that is bad about the British aristocracy in one package. :w00t:

But we can agree to differ, fortunately we don't live under the Mosley regime and therefore enjoy a democracy. (watch out for Brown)

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And whats wrong with the British Aristocracy? I think being paid from Public money to sit on ones arse all day is something that most British people aspire to!! :w00t:

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you have missed the point Mr K, should not the British Aristocracy be of independant means? ie land owners etc

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

Friedrich Nietzsche

find me on Tripadvisor

http://www.tripadvis...mbers/espritguy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think I missed the point I merely ignored it! :hrhr:

Many of the Aristocracy have old money, land and property, I agree and experience it first hand. Infact my Kids have pedigree's ( http://normanfoundation.philhooper.net/pedigree.htm ) from their moms side, tracing them back to Alderman Norman who used to own half of Norfolk (actually about 1/8th to be precise). They still get finiancial support to buy school equipment and University fee's with money put aside by Aldermann Norman for this very reason, from around 1680.

My wife's lineage can also be traced to Scottish royalty from the infamous Usher family but they're bankrupt so lets ignore that! :w00t:

So Roger, want to elaborate on what you mean? :hrhr:

Only Joking.... :hrhr:

Don't you have to be on the "list" to get public money? A Duke or Earl or somthing like that?

Possibly save your life. Check out this website.
http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

Distributor for 'Every Male' grooming products. (Discounts for any TLF members hairier than I am!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr K does this now mean we have to address you with a title? I am sure someone will think one up for you!!

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

Friedrich Nietzsche

find me on Tripadvisor

http://www.tripadvis...mbers/espritguy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting back to the Honda thing, let's put it into a bit of perspective. They have tended to have a 10-year cylce in racing. They came into F1 in the 80's and left after 10 years. They then started racing in C.A.R.T. and pulled out just less than 10 years later. They returned to F1 as an engine supplier almost 10 years ago.

And, despite all the tales of how Honda use motorsport to train their engineers, it has to show a return and, frankly, their latest F1 effort has been an embarassment. It's doing the company no good at all. Now money has got tighter, there's no way it can be justified. I don't believe F1 is in crisis. The last 2 seasons have been particularly exciting and next year, with some excellent overtaking moves. The revisions to the 2009 wings as agreed by the teams themselves should improve chances for overtaking further. The fact that 3 parties are candidates for buying Honda is evidence that F1 is still fairly healthy.

Regarding F1 budgets, they are only as high as they are because that's what people want to spend. And the more the rules get tightened up, the more people will have to spend to get an advantage. The scope for finding an advantage through being clever is shrinking every year. For all Moseley's talk of cutting budgets, he has cost the teams millions with his rule changes over the last few years. Budgets for developing KERS run into the tens of millions of dollars but probably will not improve the racing one bit. The slicks to grooves to slicks was a nonsense as well.

In LMS racing the rules are way looser and the engine rules consist of about 1 page and a table of restrictor sizes so the competitors can use their imagination and try new stuff without having to spend months refining their models and developing air-conditioned, highly repeatable test cells and CFD models to be so accurate and repeatable to pick out a 0.1% gain. Yet the racing is still good in the cheaper series.

Budgets shot up when manufacturers arrived in droves with lots of money to spend. The cost of competing went up as the rules were continually changed to try to slow the cars down, or at least slow the rate at which the speeds rose. In the meantime, the teams had to design and manufacture their own chassis. As the rules tightened, the teams needed more and more people and better tools to leave no stones unturned in in order to find those little gains. Once the manufacturers owned half the grid, the situation became unstable. It only needed something better to come along to attract the manufacturers's attention to lose half the teams. So I would be happy to see Honda sell its F1 team, something that the team principal seems confident of them doing, and get more variety in team ownership. I would also be happy for customer chassis to be available again to encourage new teams into the sport. Is a $48,000,000 deposit still needed to enter the championship? If so, get rid of it.

Making the teams use standard parts takes away the standard essence of what F1 is about, to me. There are plenty of lower series you can run with standard aerodynamic parts and standard engines and standard chassis. Bringing these into F1 endangers its USP. Furthermore, tighter rules do not mean more unpredictable results. Comparing the results of this season's F1 and NASCAR races (the high-budget, "free" formula against the cheaper, tightly-controlled series) shows that 35% of the F1 drivers taking part won races against 28% of the regular NASCAR drivers. In F1 50% of the teams won while in NASCAR only 33% of the teams did. 39% of the F1 races were won by different drivers compared to the 33% in NASCAR. So it doesn't look as though extremely-tight rules improve the racing. And NASCAR is currently in a bigger budget crunch than F1.

This still leaves the question of what to do about engines. The teams have come up with a proposal for cheaper engines. While the FIA standard engine would bring Cosworth back to the grid, which would be a good thing, a standard engine, or engine design would be a bad thing for the reasons stated above. I think the Keith Duckworth idea of simply limiting the fuel flow rate is the way forward as it makes fuel consumption and engine efficiency the main focus of engine development rather than all out power. Just issue standard fuel pump for whatever fuel the team is running and a fuel pressure regulator to control the delivery of fuel to the engine and its up to the team what they do with the fuel that system delivers. This way, whoever is brightest can win the engine war rather than the one who can afford to do the most testing. If it's a small company that designs the engine that everyone wants, the chances are that the engine will be relatively cheap as it doesn't have all the development resources of a big company to pay for.

S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And whats wrong with the British Aristocracy? I think being paid from Public money to sit on ones arse all day is something that most British people aspire to!! :w00t:

Seems that the people on the estate round the corner from me have more in common with the Queen than I thought

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a non-sport, everyone complains after the majority of races nowadays. It needs go

get back to grass roots and remember it's there as entertainment, not business.

bang on mate.

:w00t:

You can take budgets, the economy, and any other market reasons, write them all down,

wipe your bottom with it and flush it down the toilet. Because while it's good for pages and

pages of why's, if's, and because of's, it gets away from the point.

It's crap to watch these days.

V

It used to be fun to watch.

A few laps after the start i'm doing something else. One sunday i watched the rotating drum of

my washing machine instead, betting as to whether my pants would overtake my socks on the

next spin.

Maybe the F1 of today has earned and deserved it's fate?

:hrhr:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The formule 1 race is the most sophisticated sport in the world and must stay so. Otherwise it has no reason for existence.

That the budgets are so high is because we become all mad and there is a crisis necessary the bring men again to the sense of things. Now we have it in the most terrible way that we know and we will see what it will bring in time. Sadly for Honda and maybe others they lost a lot of money but probably (hopefully) they come back with brilliant ideas like Lotus did in the past.

The new Item KERS is very interesting, it could bring much improvement but why must it cost in the tens of millions? It make no sense.

But safety first: to slow down corner ability: The slicks to grooves was a safety Item also to make the race more interesting, more overtakes but it didn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wus finkin......... back in 1964 Honda entered F1 in 1965 they scored their first win. And then they were gone by 1968 it was a Honda powered Lola. In the late 70's Renault entered the fray very fast never one a championship, in his book (the title of wich I can't remember) Niki Lauder relates he turned renault down based on a beleife that a buraucratic corporation cannot run an F1 team, Renault withdrew to become an engine supplier.

Ford gave a fist full of dollars to Jackie Stewart "Build an F1 team" he did they won races, instead of giving him more dollars and a can of green paint they took it over and called it Jaguar, and embarked on the most public downward spiral in GP history.

Todays Renault team is Benatton with naming rights by the engine supplier, there's a patern here, Niki Lauder was right. No matter what is said publicly Toyota has to be at risk. :w00t:

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...