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Jeremy Clarkson was right


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In an interview with one of the guys from Starsky and Hutch, Jeremy asked "Why has the USA not yet made a decent car".

I agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments. The USA motor manufacturers have made gross Yank Tanks for too long and the new Chrysler range are beyond words, they are so ugly.

I say, let the USA manufacturers go to the wall. How the mismanagement of these companies should be rewarded by a government (taxpayer) bailout is wrong. Let the management sell their luxury houses and take public transport to work to show good faith.

I will certainly not be sorry to see them disappear.

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Yet the other week he and the other 2 were full of priase for the American cars they drove (Corvette, Chrysler thing and the challenger).

Clarkson is funny and does have a few good points but I very rarely take his word on anything car related nowadays.

Those cars might not be decent enough for Europe in the same manner there's no way in hell I'd drive a Ford KA in Los Angeles !

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In an interview with one of the guys from Starsky and Hutch, Jeremy asked "Why has the USA not yet made a decent car".

I agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments. The USA motor manufacturers have made gross Yank Tanks for too long and the new Chrysler range are beyond words, they are so ugly.

I say, let the USA manufacturers go to the wall. How the mismanagement of these companies should be rewarded by a government (taxpayer) bailout is wrong. Let the management sell their luxury houses and take public transport to work to show good faith.

I will certainly not be sorry to see them disappear.

Despite what the jack assed media may be putting out there, a large number of us States-side agree 100%. (we thought the same about the banks like AIG that have now paid ass loads of bonuses to the decision makers that got 'em in trouble to start with)

Cameron

Edited by Autocross7

"If you feel that you are in total control of the car, well, your just not driving fast enough". Jimmy Clark

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In an interview with one of the guys from Starsky and Hutch, Jeremy asked "Why has the USA not yet made a decent car".

I agree wholeheartedly with these sentiments. The USA motor manufacturers have made gross Yank Tanks for too long and the new Chrysler range are beyond words, they are so ugly.

I say, let the USA manufacturers go to the wall. How the mismanagement of these companies should be rewarded by a government (taxpayer) bailout is wrong. Let the management sell their luxury houses and take public transport to work to show good faith.

I will certainly not be sorry to see them disappear.

So, you just want to let all the workers go? The Auto Unions are one of the biggest problems here.

The people here want "Yank Tanks" because they did not want to drive a minivan or a station wagon.

Guy

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It is kind of funny how the car markets from Europe and the US are so completely different. The vehicle to have in my area is a large suv, suburban,escalde, expedition, navagator, or the like. Those people would never consider a car, much less a small car. I have also heard the opinion from europeans that american cars are poorly built, and in the US european cars are considered problematic and unreliable. In my opinon both are wrong, and right, both sides have there junk and quality. I have a Ford truck with excess of 200k on it and I have no repaired one thing, just maintain wear items. I also have a 20 year old jag that is reliable enough for long trips without worry.

As far as saving the automakers, its a mixed bag. The fat cats should loose. But the impact of all the jobs lost would actually effect the whole world. Ford's transmissions are made in Germany. GM's engines are made in Brazil. Its easy to say screw em, but it would hurt alot of people just trying to make ends meet. They should have to declare bankruptcy, but they should be funded to alow an effort to pull out and in return save a bunch of jobs.

Just my opinion.

Cheers

Clay

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Last count there were 2 roof thatchers in the whole of southern England. Typesetting is a dead art, as are many others. Times change technology changes, keep up or die. Everyone of us would have the greatest of sympathy with casualties and swelling ranks of the unemployed, but hand outs will only prolong the agony. Remember the Morris Marina from the 70's, British Leyland is dead and should be if that was the best car it could make.

Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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I dont agree that you can say all American cars are shit. Some are pretty good.

The issue here is mega size companies who employ 100 000s of people being run by incompetant greedy execs who can locate their arse from their elbow. Paying to keep these companies alive with the same people running them is plain and utter stupidity.

If you agree with it send me a cheque for $1000 dollars, i will cash it, get my mates togther and get extremely drunk and take photos of us all pissing your money away, then send you regular pictures to remind you of being a numpty.

I think for a major rethink of capitalism such that it gets its head around basic good fundamentals of running a company to happen , quite a few big players will have to go to the wall. Otherwise it will be a long drawn out death.

On 5-live news today they explained that Honda will still make 2 billion dollars proffit, about 1/3 of last years. They are still making money because they have a sound business model and decent products. So it can be done, just dont wast tax payers money to do it.

Edited by Alex --GT3--
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And of course the same applies this side of the pond. Jaguar and Landrover are asking for handouts. They make good products but no bugger wants them.

The market says change your product or close the doors.

Where do we draw the line. We've nationalised the banks, is the car industry next? Then perhaps the rail network?

Perhaps the majority of us would say "let 'em go to the wall" but what of the human cost?

We have friends on this forum who have lost their jobs .................. now we'll be adding thousands more.

These people will then reduce their spending and the knock-on effect is others finding themselves out of work.

Sadly we can not bail out a manufacturer who produces a product that no one wants to buy. That's been tried before and it doesn't work.

If I had the make the decision, then I would say "no bail out" and let the market determine who survives

Wing Commander Dibble DFC<br /><br />
North Midlands Esprit Group<br /><br />
NMEG "the formidable squadron"<br /><br />
"probably the most active Esprit group in the world" Andy Betts, Castle Combe May 2007

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Damn! You beat me to it!!

Modifying esprit's.. now that's fun..

PS... I AM NOT A CERTIFIED MECHANIC.. I Have chosen to help those in need, in the past and must not be construed as being a certified technician.

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I'm not sure I'd agree about cars there being crap. Horses for courses.

Those big, lazy, cruising cars have their place. I'd sooner drive one of them through the mid-west from Oregon to Ohio or so, with a family aboard than the typical euro family runabout.

Those big open spaces with an absence of good driving roads places a different emphasis on what a car should be and do.

DanR

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GM is like a massive pension fund for 100s of 1000s of ex-Workers so the Company is never going to be efficent. Painfully though it may be, I'd say let it go bust and clear the books. The best brands will get bought up and production can continue under more efficent companies. And some of the ex-workers could be reemployed.

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Sorry, you cant just say that all their products are [email protected], its just not true. Similary you cant say that the public dont want them. Just look at the market share of the Ford F series..

Ford has considerably streamlined their factories and production but the real killer has already been mentioned, the auto unions and the pension funds.

Trouble is that there are people like Senator Shelby claiming that these dinosaurs need to be extinct. No doubt that will be extremely profitable for his state of Alabama that has handed out land for new factories for Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai et al.... The state of Alabama has signed to buy several thousand Mercs IIRC, so there may be 'invested interest' (allegedly)

So when people like Shelby denounce their own industry subsidies, who was it who drove the 250,000,000 dollar 'incentive' package for Mercedes?

Spot the hypocrite :)

Oh and please dont tell me that Mercedes are a top quality product. They might have been in the early 90s but the new ones cant hold a candle to that generation.

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there's a lot of talk about 'making the wrong product so change it'

I dont get this. Cars are expensive so people stop buying them in a downturn, or at least buy a lot less. What should they make instead, cooking pots?

Jaguar arent the only ones in dire straights, they all are but they arent all going to change what they make are they? Honda make cheap cars but have stopped production for a lengthy period. They wont be changing their product any time soon...

Edited by DBredS4
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Interesting bit on our local news about Jaguar. They confirmed that they were in talks with the Government about financial aid, however, the government are fully aware that the owners of Jaguar (Tata) have just sponsored the Ferrari F1 team to the tune of god knows how much.

So if you were the government wouldn't you say to Tata - you bail them out you have the money it would seem.

Dave - 2000 Sport 350
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Watched some idiot "Automotive Expert" from Warwick University (vested interest) saying on the news " If Jaguar and Land Rover are struggling things must be really bad because they make cars people want and that are great sellers!".

What a Knob who knows nothing!!

Jaguar and Land Rover make cars that are desirable but not affordable in todays market. They don't have a low Co2 or small family car and that is a disaster in todays market for a mass producing car manufacturer. Smaller specialists like Lotus can just about get away with it, as they make light economical sports cars with relatively low Co2 for their performance.

Land Rover and Jaguar are 2 companies that, IMHO, the govt shouldn't help unless they change their business model, otherwise you are merely encouraging poor planning and lack of understanding of what people want and need.

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http://everyman-campaign.org/

 

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So Bush bailed out GM and Chrysler this morning. A $17.4bn loan which will keep them operating until March. Hope they can sort them selves out between now and then.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbys...ue-package.html

Edited by Mark Blanchard
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Now that they have this money it will be very interesting to see what they do with it!! It would be devastating if these companies went under, but I personally don't think they should be here if they can't produce a competent product.

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They wont do crap one thing they should. I promise that. They will sit on it until interest builds, then pay the moronic shite heads on the board and the more more more share holders the bonus checks they all deserve. 'Fancy Mae' did it. AIG did it. The big 3 will do it as well and the UAW (should be labeled as a terrorist organization really) will make off like banditis. The workers will still get screwed in the end. Roger has it right on ths one. The UAW has prevented better, safer, more modern, and more efficient facilities from being built by Ford (for sure) for the last 30 years. The Ford plant in Brazil is based on the Mazda plant in Hiroshima. The UAW attacked them for wanting it (or similar facility) in the USA and then politically blocked the move! Crooks and dead beats every one.

As for the US built cars and trucks. Toyota, Mazda, Hyundia, Nissan, Mercedes all seem to be doing okay don't they? They build those cars free of the UAW and they build them in the USA! Ford was very smart when the paired with Mazda, and unlike GM, they took information and changed Ford. Then there is the UAW trying to stop them from implementing anything Mazda showed the Ford company how to do better. Result? Well, one example is the F-150. Very good truck (as noted bove). Dad has one with 167K miles on it with no issues yet. Ford wanted to change the way this truck was built based on what it gleened from Mazda. The UAW threw a fit and started a load of crap... so Ford closed the US shop, opened a newer more efficient plant in Mexico, and built the truck out of Mazda parts with a work flow developed by Mazda in Japan. The entire truck is basically a Mazda now... right down to the paint code! Notice Ford is really kind of Ho Hum regarding all this bailout stuff? Ford will be okay for a while. GM is plain screwed due to its own leadership and completely inept management.

Nature does not tolerate a vacuum and the workers, free of the UAW, will get re-employed by the next group of companies to pop up. There are many over the years that were squashed by the Big 3 and the UAW (remember the Tucker?). There are plenty waiting in the wings. In the long run, the baiout has band-aided a bulit wound. There is no recovery in sight as long as the failure is not laid at the feet of the top dogs, share holders, and the UAW. 10 minutes after the bailout check gets cashed... the layoffs will get planned... but prob not announced until Christmas of 09.

Cameron

Edited by Autocross7

"If you feel that you are in total control of the car, well, your just not driving fast enough". Jimmy Clark

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Cameron its very difficult to understand what you say but I think it will be in mine own words: Let the big 3 go down, leave the pension for the government and help the working men with build up an other smaller company that produce profitable cars.

Here in Europe it would be no problem because Ford Europe and Opel could stand alone and be competent.

Jean

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Sorry, I do get to ramblin... comes from working around legal crap and politicians!

In short it is like this:

Bailout money will not save the jobs of the workers. The jobs will be cut as production must be cut based on sales. Bailouts will keep some jobs for a short period whlie allowing the UAW, Big 3 shareholders, and Big 3 management to cash large bonus checks as if they have dome a good job.

The good American cars, even Fords, are not really American cars. There are only a few of these and not enough to save the Big 3. They are all Fords.

The best auto manufactures that provide the most jobs are not the Big 3. They are Japanese and some European manufactures that build in the USA. Mazda, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundia, Toyota, and Honda are examples of these companies. For the most part these companies are not going down the sewer pipe and they do not have the UAW running them.

The Big 3 failing will not cost as much as bailing them out. The jobs people point to as being lost will be lost anyway. If they fail, there will be other companies that spring up or take over and the workers will be better off in the long run. Ironically, the worker's tax dollars are now going to bailout the very companies that will be laying them off next year. Dumb.

Cameron

Edited by Autocross7

"If you feel that you are in total control of the car, well, your just not driving fast enough". Jimmy Clark

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As for funding a car company (Jaguar Land rover)....... sounds like a De Lorean set up to me :dizzy: .... why would labour want to help Tata (who are not poor!) :popo: with products that have always had quality/money/ and reliability problems (i have had loads of landys and a range rover).. Land rover has always been passed around for years (BMW owned them just for the 4x4 technology...the X5 arrrived and BMW sold Land rover on to Ford) :shock:

in the Motor trade ( i work for Mercedes-Benz which are not the best :welcome: ) the fittest will survive..... what would BL be producing in this country now if helped out by the taxpayer..the new 2009 morris marina :blink: ..

the De Lorean was a example of how money thrown at a motor company can`t produce a successful motor vehicle.. a car company has to adapt and learn from others failings...... but do they?............... ;)

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This ad, made as a rebuttal, speaks a bit more truth:

winnie.jpg

As a side note, does anyone who posted in this thread understand the supply chain? The fact that the three American makers, as well as Honda and Toyota, stand to lose their suppliers if just one of the big three folds? We're talking about tens of thousands of jobs (maybe a six-figure number) lost across at least several states. Tier 1 suppliers, affecting tier 2 suppliers and so on, and the ripple effect on the rest of our economy (and consequently other countries' economies) when people don't have the money to pay their mortgage/rent, buy Christmas presents, pay bills, buy TVs and stereos, whatever. Sure, if one or more of the big three collapse, everything will eventually sort itself out, but the damage it will do in the mean time would be catastrophic. This bailout is peanuts compared to the economic loss we would suffer, and is peanuts compared to WHAT WE BAILED OUT THE BASTARD BANKS FOR, AND THE MONEY WE PISS AWAY DAILY ON THE IRAQ WAR.

Another note: The two best selling vehicles in America are both American: The Ford F150 and Chevy Silverado each sell 350,000-550,000 units per year. The suggestion that nobody in America wants to buy American cars is sheer stupidity, as they represent three of the top 5 or 6.

Are the execs greedy bastards? Yep.

Are the engineers arrogant snotty greedy bastards? Yep.

Are the workers lazy greedy slobs? Yep.

But ultimately, the real problem is with the Unions. They would rather see the earth topple than give an inch.

The two big things hurting the big three's profitability are the union wages and terms and the pensions. The only reason Honda and Toyota are making a profit here is because they don't have those. The big three's financial woes have comparatively little to do with their ability to make cars that people want.

I despise everything about the Detroit/American car culture and am very critical about the cars, but if American cars were that bad, they wouldn't be selling millions of them per year, and we'd all be driving Peugeots, Fiats, and Diahatsus.

Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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