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jpspeedy

chip #5

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I just put in the #5 chip, had the factory chip before. What a difference it's night and day. I sure this cold weather is helping some, I can't keep the wheels from spinning in 1st and 2nd. I am going to need new tires. Been shopping thinking about going with BF Goodrich g-force super sport a/s they make 205-50ZR-15's and 245-50ZR-16's. anyone use these tires? thanks jim

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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

Aerobat uses the Goodyear Eagle GT-1's on his car... they are probably the best tires i've seen in action -- helped us catch the Donkeys in the corners on wet roads... and they seem to be VERY sticky on dry pave.. they don't require as much "warming up" as other tires I've seen.


Modifying esprit's.. now that's fun..

PS... I AM NOT A CERTIFIED MECHANIC.. I Have chosen to help those in need, in the past and must not be construed as being a certified technician.

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That chip is nice, it's great at around 100 when you squeeze the throttle and it still kicks you in the back and shoots off at a great speed- allegedly. I wouldn't do that unless it was somewhere 100mph + was legal.

Andy

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I put the BF Goodrich's on mine and they are great. the only alternative i could find to them were yokohama's which are good also but a bit too nooisy.

I also went up in width to a 265 on the rear which has given me a lot more traction, not to mention moving away from the cheesecutter look of skinny tyres.

HTH Justin


"Laugh" and the world laughs with you - "Cry" and you just wet your face...

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If you like that you should try #6 with some bigger injectors and a T3/T4 hybrid from Turbonetics in Simi Valley, CA :-)

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The upgrade chips are a huge improvement over the stock setup. However, it is really important to ensure your car is running properly and that the charge cooler is fully functional. As even with #4 and #5 chips if the charge cooler isnt working properly the cars performance is severaly impaired.

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After doing a lot of research I opted away from the chip, mainly I think some of the upper boost levels are un-attainable due to the map sensor not reading high levels of boost (ie past 1.1bar where the sensor voltage is saturated). Secoondly the rush of power seems to be from the overboost solenoid opening early and wide open to maximum lower down in the rev range.

My issues with both is that higher boost = higher inlet temps whic really equate to lower (nomal) boost after 2-3 seconds - the chargecooler temp rises and all the benefits from overboost are exhausted rather quickly.

The overboost solenoid equates to reving the turbo from zero to max speed so quickly that is is not designed to encour those stresses. If you look at freescan you can see this vs a standard car. At 3000 rpm the solenoid goes to 100DC whilst on a standard car the overboost (ie turbo rpm) is drifted in smoothly (and admittedly slower)

Personally I think the chargecooling has more of an impact as a car hitting 40c MAT and running high boost vs a standard car with a lower temp is night and day as well. not wishing to burst any bubbles just encouagiing discussion but thats the way I see better improvement of the car, sustainable inlet temps over just whipping the equipment to go faster and faster.


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Hi Jonathan, Hi All,

Yes, you are right. With #3 and higher the soleniod is vented 100% at low rpm to get quickest possible spool up times. This is common practice and if you look at the factory S300-tables its done there the very same way from factory. I dont think doing this is wrong ... if it would not be like this, I'm sure people would complain and point out that our chips are not programmed properly.

IMHO, a good turbo will not have any problems there.

Yes, c/cooling is always a very important factor. The cooler, the better, especially on hot days.

Of course, MAT will rise at high boost and with sustained high boost (whenever you can do that more than a couple seconds !) it will rise to a stationary level, in theory. This depends mainly on ambient temp, boost level, turbo-efficiency and c/cooler efficiency ... But, I'm sure you will not be able to experience this stationary level ... maybe on an air-field or a salt-lake its possible.

But, you are right, the better the c/cooler efficiency, the better the overall performance, of course.

Cheers

Marcus


Marcus

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Hi Jon,

As part of your research, did you ever try one of the upgrade chips? with one of those adapater boards, its now a painless 5 minute process.

I doubt there are many people on here who tried an chip upgraded and would ever go back to stock. The improvement are just to wide ranging and not just in top end performance but in low end drivability. Also your point about the solonid is true if your driving using the throttle in an 0%-100% driving style. The power is there if you need it and you push for it. Even living in the North West, the only chance to do any un-interruppted spirited driving is early Sunday morning, any other time your lucky to manage a couple of corners before getting held up.

I agree that making improvement in all the non-ECU areas such as weight, CC, Brakes, tyres etc is important. However, it is impossible to ignore or discount the chips as it plays such a fundemental role in the cars behaviour. Lotus clearly new this as they themselves continued to delivery improved revisions of their chips through the production life of the car.

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Carl - I did look at a few freescans of them and seen the raw ECU data, as I keep saying about my poor money tree that died and I havent the


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Hi Jonathan not sure if you've been in my Esprit but talk to the guys at Sporto as they know my car well and admit it as possibly one of the quickest Esprits they've ever encountered.

Now I hear you ask at what cost, well to date:

3 x new turbos in 4 years

3 x manifolds 5 years

I totally agree with your points on #5 sustainable boost and limited useful boost, truth be told your right. The boost can not be sustained anywhere near as long as the stock chip however with the response and immediate punch it offers your streaks ahead up the road. A good test for out and out performance was 45mins solid at Thruxton on a very hot summers day. The cars initial acceleration was blistering however once highspeeds were achieved she ran out of sustained boost and was actually quite dull.

I'd do a deal with you though guaranteed (on legal road of course) from 100mph to 150 ish if I put

Edited by waynef

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Wayne, I'd love to have a seat in your car :)

In many ways you've proved my point - on a single burst there is no doubt - Ive seen the effect on 2-3 chipped cars on the rollers produce 280+ hp. In the same way your idea of a race (not sure I'll do 150...but I'll happily have a mess around at upto 120-130 on this nice private road closed I know - btw we are talking kmh).

We'll do a run which you'll beat me with and then do a second run (keeping in mind mines only 260 peak BHP) and see ow much the difference is, then possibly a 3rd - be interesting to see the freescans of the comparison as well. keeping in mind you only have to be 500rpm out of the power band on a turbo to be totally left in the dust.

My point was questioning the actual benefit of chipping vs other mods at the same cost.

IMO chargecooler mods are the way to go whilst still using stock boost to keep the average usable boost to a realistic level.

When you gun your car the wastegate solenoid goes wide open from go and you're probably producing max boost (hate to see the overboost spike, bad enough on a stock ecu) very early on, thats sapping the temperature away until your peak rpm boost. Becuase the temp is higher and the boost limiter is set higher too - in effect whats the extra stain on the turbo...if the temp was constant 1.1 bar is 30% more boost than standard...I reakon realistically you're flogging your tubro to 40% extra at 1.1 bar !! (thats a lot)

Not to mention the MAP sensor is saturated at 1.1 bar anyways, after that the car is in open loop.

Can the stock turbo take this abuse ?

So how come the new turbos ?

I know an awful lot of Esprits had re-builds and new equipment (turbos) after messing around with the boost on their cars, coincidence ? Or is it the case people just frigg around with their cars and bugger them up ?

TBH I know very few stock cars with engine problems. As I say there is more than 1 way of skinning a cat.

EDIT:

Also with regards to the S300 refrence, the turbos are different on all cars (according to the parts list) an S300 housing/compressor etc might be able to take this fast increase in acceleration, doesn't mean the one on the other cars will.

I'd like to know what overboost affect the surge on a standard turbo as well, if you're incrasing the pressure by 30% for example you have much more exhaust gas coming out the back - can the turbine pass that flow or will it backup and cause backpressure / turbo failure - I think if you're spending e350 on an ecu chip I'd like to know that info.

Edited by Jonathan

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Jonathan again a valid point, as I said my car has eaten a fair few Turbos's.

I'm running at around 330ish Horsepower.

The Turbo failures I believe are due to massive pressure diferentials causing the blades to warp (exhaust side). You may remember at Coombe last year I had the turbine with three failed blades on it, caused by over pressure.

One of the Turbos I had even fractured the turbine housing along the casting seam.

Truth be told is with the diameters on both inlet and out let and the fact the engine is only 2.2litre running to 7400revs, no matter what you do, the engine can only displace the cylinder capacity x revs / minute. Over boosting will cause the turbo to spool up incredibly quickly initially shifting the gasses rapidly, however there will be a point where the turbine is well over its running parameters and will create massive internal pressures, its this I feel is the area of concern as the main pressure differential, I reckon is the key killer of the Esprits Turbo.

As for being 500rpm out of the rev range I disagree. With #5 there is no lag!!! My car will pull from 2000 - max rpm even if i miss a gear and slip into say fourth and not third it wil pull like a train. The Overboosting is a concern but i've learnt to control my right foot and know when i'm going to blow the turbo or not and just a small lift off the throttle before giving more gas seems to be the trick. You'll see your self when we get together the rush of air is incredible it sounds like a massive airleak when she over boosts but its normal.

Now I know a lot of you will disagree but having tweaked around with the car and played with settings and boost control etc etc, I too am of the opinion that cost for cost stock is best, however the kick from #5 with mods is addictive, but be prepared as I am for some massive bills.

Waynef

Edited by waynef

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Wayne - can I still get a ride in your car :)

This is what concerned me enough not to invest in a chip, the internal pressures as you say when the volume of gas builds up behind the turbine as you rev it way past what it's normal speed is.

WRT to 500rpm I was talking about standard cars, I know there is little lag with the chipped cars you can see how quickly boost builds on WOT.

I was having a little racing game with Bibs last sunday and we both planted it and I was just a few rpm out and - boom - it was if I hadn't accelerated !

This is why everything I'll be modding on the two cars will be chargecooler efficiency - there is actually a lot of waste in that system and a few quid can sort out quite a large benefit - insulating hoses, faster pump, double core rad, external piping etc.


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Jonathan course you can :)

I still think we should do some comparisons steady 50mph in both third and fourth and hard acceleration to 100mph

It would be good to see the Freescan log especially in fourth gear as this is when mine overboosts the max at around 4500rpm in fourth.

I'm more interested in the spike your on about as this i think is the key to why Turbo's are blowing.

Waynef

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Cool, I'm up for that.

Interesint thing is I get sustained boost right up to the red line - I have some gear specific freescans here, where as heat soak is really playing a part with a chipped car - your peak power is higher but my average power is probably not far off yours - in which case....why the chip ?

Spikes....I've seen it on a few chipped cars (rather not mention names) but becuase the wastegate solenoid is effectivly wide open from relativly low rpm the boost picks up so quickly that when peak pressure is achieved and the ECU goes F**kin hell, it's too late to react and you get a lovely pulse over boost to what your regulated limit is.

This is much less apparent in a standard car becuase the overboost solenoid is drifted in less violent and the mechanics have time to react and stop pressure spikes.

You get this in all speed / temperature etc control - your 1st shot will almost always over reach and then it will under reach and steady itself out from there.

The vast majority of cases my overboost wastegate duty cycle is never at 100%

Sustained periods of 0.85 bar boost (1.96 freescan reading) warrents 73% duty cycle at ~ 20c

Building up to that the car will spike at about 0.925 bar (2.06 freescan) before being regulated - when it does over boost you can clearly see the car backing off the solenoid to 67-70% to control it.

The car also always, always operates in closed loop mode.

These are all the things I looked at when I was prospectivly going to have a chip made, I talked for ages to the desiger and in the end they actually came to the same conclusion that mabbe a little bit more was best but adding a chip that increases the car by 20-30% boost requires a different turbo with respect to what you have on there to start with.


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Hi All, Hi Jonathan,

The ECU should leave closed loop (= goes into open loop fuelling mode) when TPS is greater 95%.

This is true for bone stock chip/programs and also chip #3-#6.

Cheers

Marcus


Marcus

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Hi Jonathan

Yes avergae power is quite possibly going to be similar but I would lay money my torque curve would be considerably higher with chipped versus unchipped.

Its the torque that makes the difference not really the power.

I guess we need to do what I said but on a rolling road, then we would have some hard facts.

BTW Torque also destroys engine parts and other lol

Waynef

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The car also always, always operates in closed loop mode.

That's not right, should go open loop at certain parameters as it's programmed to do.


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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With respect, my cars must be the exception to the rule then.

I've also got scans of chipped cars running 95%+ tps and still in closed loop mode as well.

They never ever enter open loop mode (ie the closed loop column never goes to 0 zero) - I have pages of data from my stock GT3 at 100 tps remaining in closed loop mode (and it does get driven at 100tps an awful lot of the time).

Over the 10,000's of lines of data I've taken from the GT3 alone I have only ever seen it go into open loop possibly 3-4 times, for one line only, when on over run (ie throttle off from high revs in a low gear, so rapid deceleration) or if it suffers a voltage/sensor spike/misreading.

I'll say again it never, ever, goes into open loop whilst under 100% tps acceleration or on any other throttle setting all the way to maximum boost / RPM (which I commonly get 1.95-2.18 on freescans MAP reading).

Conversly chipped cars I have seen flutter in and out of closed loop virtually every time they are on boost.

Edited by Jonathan

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Jonathan,

This is very strange, because in closed loop the A/F will stay strictly to lambda 1 (= 14,7) and this is a quite lean mixture that is not suited for higher power and higher boost.

All the 4-cylinder ECM equipped cars (MY 88+) and also the V8 leave closed loop when on full TPS/boost ... thats why people get the well known fairly rich mixtures (down to A/F 10:1) when they do dyno runs.

Hmmmmmm ...

Cheers

Marcus


Marcus

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If it helps - A:F ratios form my 1997 GT3 are :

Idle - 14.6

Seems that ~ 30% tps the car goes to ~13.3

Sustained max boost in 4th gear from 60 - 100 (on a private road) started at 13.3 and ended up after a few secs to 11.2

The overall span of A:F was 11.2 to 14.6 for that 5-6minute test in 4th.

At different gears I have seen it as low as 10 after durations at wide open throttle but never more than 14.7


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Note that these are the commanded A/F ratios. Given the limited range of the O2 sensor, there is no way of knowing whether you actually get in the 11 or 10 range since the sensor will be saturated long before.

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Forgetting about sustained boost etc just the added driveability the extra low down torque gives you I beleive makes chipping worth while. A stock S4s chip is far better than stock SE, but the #3 is a vast improvement on this making the car a lot easier to drive everywhere, not just on the open road foot to the floor. The difference in driveability is much greater than you would expect. How mechanically sympathetic it is is largely down to your right foot and what chip you choose. If you've got the offer to try a chip in your GT3 you realy should give it a go just to experience it. Theory is great, but no substitute for a real life test.

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