seasonal musings

[esprit350]

A couple of seasonal questions

would the world be a better place if Herod had been successful?

why is christmas music so s*^t?

[tinywillyuk]

Question 1 - bit tricky and with various religious views represented on a worldwide forum, I'm going to duck out of that one.

Question 2 - cos its repeated every year, and within each year, time and time again within a condensed space and time. If I hear Maria sodding Carey again this year it'll be too soon. That said the original Band Aid I can tolerate (ok I almost like it) and brings back images of BBC news showing food aid being dumped by the RAF out of the back of Hercules aircraft. Always remember not Christmas but just how dynamic the people of the airforce looked helping out those in need.. I drift..sorry!

[Kimbers]

Interesting questions, but ones that can bring about some arguements. So we'll have to keep a close eye on it.

1. What ever your religious beliefs there is no doubt that religion has a lot to answer for. For example, does the Popes comment this week that "saving the world from homosexuality is as big a job as saving the rainforests", show an understanding for modern life and it's various and colourful people, or is it a bigotted comment, ill informed and not worthy of a BNP activist yet alone a religious world leader?

Without religion we would not have the current ill feelings between different beliefs and their associated murders and terrorism and many of our wars would have been avoided.

HOWEVER I also know some deeply religious people (and work with them) who do actually live their life for others and have a true good heart because of what they believe. There is nothing wrong with loving thy neighbour and being true to your beliefs and the church does do many good things locally from feeding homeless people to supporting local charities.

2. That also involves Christmas. Which is a religious festival highjacked for commercial gain. However, seeing my whole family together again, sharing all the good will and seeing my kids faces on Christmas day, makes it all worthwhile. I also appreciate the extra time off to recharge my batteries and give myself a reason to go on a diet in the new year.

I do sometimes feel a little "bah humbug", especially as all the razzmatazz starts so early, but this close to Christmas I can't help but look forward to it and just having a good time. Let yourself go Howard, eat, drink and be merry!

[Bibs]

I also know some deeply religious people (and work with them) who do actually live their life for others and have a true good heart because of what they believe. There is nothing wrong with loving thy neighbour and being true to your beliefs and the church does do many good things locally from feeding homeless people to supporting local charities.

I don't think you have to be religious to do all that. I'm strictly atheist and do that kind of stuff, religion plays no part at all.

That also involves Christmas. Which is a religious festival highjacked for commercial gain.

Which was originally a pagan festival hijacked for religious gain.

[Katie]

Howard, I take it you have not listened to a choral version of Eric Whitacre's Lux Aurumque. Most definitely NOT shit christmas music!!

[Bibs]

Didn't Slade cover that?

[arbell9]

I assume Howard you are referring to the the Massacre described in the new testament?

New Testament references

Main article: Massacre of the Innocents

Herod the Great appears in The Gospel according to Matthew (Ch. 2), which describes an event known as the Massacre of the Innocents.

According to Matthew's gospel, shortly after the birth of Jesus, Magi from the East visited Herod to inquire the whereabouts of "the one having been born king of the Jews", because they had seen his star in the east and therefore wanted to pay him homage. Herod, who was himself King of Judea, was alarmed at the prospect of the newborn king usurping his rule.

In the story, Herod was advised by the assembled chief priests and scribes of the people that the Prophet had written that the "Anointed One" (Greek: ho christos) was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea. Herod therefore sent the Magi to Bethlehem, instructing them to search for the child and, after they had found him, to "report to me, so that I too may go and worship him". However, after they had found Jesus, the Magi were warned in a dream not to report back to Herod. Similarly, Joseph was warned in a dream that Herod intended to kill Jesus, so he and his family fled to Egypt. When Herod realized he had been outwitted by the Magi, he gave orders to kill all boys of the age of two and under in Bethlehem and its vicinity. Joseph and his family stayed in Egypt until Herod's death, then moved to Nazareth in Galilee in order to avoid living under Herod's son Archelaus.

The historical accuracy of this event has been questioned, since although Herod was certainly guilty of many brutal acts, including the killing of his wife and two of his sons, no other source from the period makes any reference to such a massacre.

Would it have stopped christianty from developing? No it has been an ongoing evolving entity for 1000's years.

I think that having faith per se in any form of deity or belief system isnt a bad thing, its when you want to wield power in the name of it. This is hard stomach because what is at the heart of your motivation is a belief, not fact or logic. Religious power can be used for good but alas we know that a minority use it for evil and gives it a bad name.

So would a Roman Client king killing the baby jesus have led to a better world. No.

Christmas songs - the devils work I understand and therefore thats why they are shit. It's retribution against the botched baby jesus hit all them years ago. If he had been wiped they would not exist as we wouldnt celebrate his birth in the same way. So its payback from Mephistopholes!!!

[Paul C]

It's my favorite time of the year!

The town is full of folk. People that live away come back to see their families so

you get to bump into folk you have not seen for a year. I take two weeks off work

every year at christmas, there is no other two week period in the year when so many

folk are also on holiday (take two weeks off in july and it's just you). It's ace.

I don't really care/believe what caused it to be so, and aside from dodging the god

squad as they did their yearly door to door 'god down your throat' thing, i don't give

it a thought. I'm just happy for the holiday.

The music is dire Howard, but through the whole of december it's there at work

reminding me the best two weeks of the year are coming, so i don't mind it at all.

Can't wait until tomorrow night!!!!!

Hell for me is:

On a beach or by the pool, in the sun, with a book and some naff drink with ice cubes in it.

[Laura]

I love Christmas music, sorry but I like to embrace Christmas, act like a big kid and enjoy it! I've got 3 hours of carols and Christmas pop songs to listen to in the car on the journey to see may folks Christmas morning.

I don't care for the origins of Christmas, nor do I care if it's over hyped and commercialised. Personally I've found that being a humbug about these things is a vicious circle and just makes me grumpier. If you can't beat 'em join 'em as they say.

Oh I wish it could be Christmas every daaaaay.........

[MPx]

My view FWIW

1) No. Many people seem to "need" to embrace religion - though I've never understood why, much to their dismay. Different history might mean different religions, but they would have been just as rife. There are plenty of non-christian choices already and they are as often at each others throats as are the Christians vs the rest or even Christian sect vs Christian sect. Its always struck me as odd that very few pious Christians live "christian" lives, but then I've known plenty of non-Jewish Jews, the odd friendly Muslim (!), and so on. Being a good to know human being seems to me to have nothing to do with religion. In my experience there are many really nice people among the agnostics and athiests and of course a fair few in the religious sets.

2) No again! How can you not smile at the Pogues/Mackall nonesense?

[mayevora]

How can you not smile at the Pogues/Mackall nonesense?

Mostly agree with Howard but one or two exeptions - the above being one of them.

[Tony K]

I believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But I'm going to try as hard as I can to answer your questions in a secular manner:

Response to first question:

Jesus said things like "Love your neighbor as yourself."

He was against things like stealing, killing, adultery, and lying.

He cared for sick people. He befriended the outcasts of society. He denied greed. He advocated helping the poor. He looked upon women with respect in a society that treated women as inferior. He did lots of good things. He lead by example with service, selflessness and sacrifice.

I'm trying to come up with a reason why killing such a leader and role model as an infant might be beneficial . . . but I really can't think of one. The fruits of his actions are good: The overwhelming majority of the lives His followers have lived throughout the years have been loving and good. Don't let the misguided actions of a (comparative) few people now and at various points in history represent the majority. One could take any large group of people in human history and use the example of a few to make the whole look bad. Human beings are human beings, and any group of people will act selfishly or with a herd mentality, and make mistakes.

You can blame Christianity for whatever you want that you think is wrong with the world, but to be fair you also have to credit the good in equal part. Christianity is inextricably intertwined with Western Civilization, and with that comes all of our advances in society -- freedom, charity, generosity, science, art, culture, human rights, etc. These things are all products of our societal values, which are rooted in the Judeo-Christian ethic.

Response to second question:

I think the majority of Christmas music heard on the radio in public places is s**t because it is the same corporate garbage spewed out by record companies as what you hear on the radio the rest of the year. The songs are not inspired, original, or genuine; they are managed and contrived in an attempt to obtain an end result, and ultimately they are made for profit, not joy. Kind of like styling a car based on focus groups and copycatism (like some crap from GM or Toyota) instead of from one man's passion and soul (like Giugiaro's).

I don't like it, so I keep it turned off, just like I do the rest of the stuff the rest of the year.

As a general comment/question, I don't understand why atheists even care about or take part in Christmas at all. Why do something without reason? For me (Catholic), it is a very special time, a time of prayer and celebration, and there is a genuine reason for the family coming together. It's an important day, just like a wedding or a graduation. Giving gifts is fun and a nice way to show someone that you love them, but it's really just a little (and non-vital) thing. I would feel funny doing all the razzmatazz of the Christmas season with no reason to, or even using something I don't believe in as a reason to get together. Why even bother?

Well, whatever you believe, I wish you all a happy and blessed Christmas.

[USAndretti42]

1. This question is a bit like, "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object." If Herod had been successful, the baby wouldn't have been the son of God. If the baby were the son of God, Herod could not succeed.

A bunch of bad stuff has been done in the name of Christianity but without Christianity, the same things would have been done, just with a different excuse.

2. I like some of the popular Christmas songs. What I do hate is the soppy arrangements that so many singers use. I thought it was supposed to be a time of celebration and joy so why the depressing versions of so many songs?

[s4simon]

Hell for me is:

On a beach or by the pool, in the sun

Welcome to my private hell then. ;-)

[esprit350]

thanks for your comments, I know it was going to be a contensious issue, sorry if I offend anyone with strong religous veiws, but I dont think jesus was the son of god until about 300 years after his death when the church deceide to deifi him, I agree that all the bad would have been done anyway with some other excuse, hell all religions are hypocritcal and have an agenda to suit there own ends.

as for the music I cant stand most of it especially the pouges mackall song.

Katie I will check out your suggestion

[rogerch]

I love the Messiah, but I see at as a great choral work rather than a religious one I can listen to it and enjoy it any time of the year.

Roger

[Tony K]

thanks for your comments, I know it was going to be a contensious issue, sorry if I offend anyone with strong religous veiws,

Well, I probably have the strongest views . . . . but no offense taken.

Happy Christmas!

[Kimbers]

Tony, Now I know why you're my Evil twin!! Because I'm Evil and you're actually Good! How Ironic!!

I think Howard was using Herod incorrectly, but as a "What if Jesus didn't exist in the first place" kind of thing. Herod was, according to the Bible, the worlds largest child seriel killer and, according to the bible, a mass murderer. Don't take that part literally.

To take issue slightly with your comment "The overwhelming majority of the lives His followers have lived throughout the years have been loving and good. Don't let the misguided actions of a (comparative) few people now and at various points in history represent the majority."

I don't believe this is strictly true. Maybe today, or in the 20th century this comment is true. But through History, no.

I grew up with a fascination for history and we have something here in Europe called the "Dark Ages" where the church was the law and stopped progress in engineering, government etc ....natural human evolution if you will. The pope decreed steps in medicine as the devils work and women using "hedge Medicine" or herbs were persecuted and killed as witches. Kings and queens had to succumb to church authority or be excommunicated and destroyed financially and physically. God forbid if you didn't believe in the same god such as the Saracens cause you had a crusade called on your ass.

The Cathars, in the south of France were hunted and murdered. Every man woman and child, on the orders of the church. Many locked inside their churches and burned alive. The Knights Templar were killed to a man, even though they were knights of the church, because they had become too powerful, on direct order of the pope. I could go on and on. Even modern Popes like Pius the XII failed to criticise Hitler or excommunicate him, because his terrible crimes were orchestrated on "non Christians" Jews, Protestants, Gypsies, Homosexuals etc. You get the idea? This wasn't a few people, this was the church and their "itinery" was followed by the masses, not a few people, for 500 years or more! (it could be argued up until around the 15-1600's)

My problem is that during much of that time the History was written by the church. Much of what we know about Jesus was written by the church and even the church agree's that much has been changed in the bible after re-write on re-write.

So was Herod really that evil? According to the Bible yes! Did Jesus exist? I believe he definately did. Was Jesus the son of God? According to the bible he was, Was Jesus white? According to the bible yes, but we know thats not possible because he was from Jerusalem, so he was dark skinned, again the bible conforming to the European norm. It's known that the original New Testatment was written a hundred years after Jesus died so how much faith can we put in it?

I really don't criticise anyone for their beliefs and morals. I am like an Agnostic. And if someone wants to live their life by the moral standards set in the bible that fantastic! I don't need the bible to tell me how to be good because I know how to do that myself.

Lastly, no matter what you believe have a good christmas, or god bless you at this time of year.

[molemot]

As Bibs has said, Christmas is only the pagan midwinter festival hijacked by the Christian Church for it's own ends. There was no way they were going to get the populace to forego a bit of a knees-up at the end of the year, so they called it Jesus's Birthday and adopted it. Nobody will ever be able to tell what the truth is about the story of Jesus..the fact they call it a "story" is perhaps a clue...because over 2000 years has elapsed since it is supposed to have happened, so there is and can never be any incontrovertible evidence. Religion - ALL religions - exist for one purpose only...the repression of the masses. They are a controlling factor.."Do what we say and you will live for ever." They are all of the "If you obey and believe then paradise will be yours after you die" school..although you'll probably get the sh*t end of the stick whilst you live. Look at the magnificent churches, cathedrals and temples around the world..all built by taking money from the poor, thus making them poorer. Kimbers is also correct in his assertion that religious interference obstructed human progress for hundreds of years..interestingly, the excommunication of Galileo Galileii has now been rescinded, so one can assume that the Vatican is now prepared to believe that the Earth actually isn't the centre of the Universe.

Now, I'm not knocking Christianity..although I personally do not believe in anything even vaguely religious, it is apparent that if everybody adhered to Christian principles we wouldn't have half the problems of public order and mindless violence that we do. Children would be born in wedlock with two parents to care for them. My personal feeling is that ALL religions are good in the micro application and bad in the macro application. As a set of instructions as to how to live your life, they all work...once they begin to be used on a more general and exclusive scale, you get things like the Spanish Inquisition and the annihilation of the Cathars, as previously noted. I would think that more people have died because of organised belief in some mythical being than any other single cause. All armies have God on their side..."Gott mit Uns"... or whatever.

It's not just that one religion hates another..to quote Tom Lehrer:" All the Protestants hate the Catholics, and the Catholics hate the Protestants, and the Muslims hate the Hindus and EVERYBODY hates the Jews!" Even groups claiming to believe in the SAME God are still at daggers drawn. If this sort of mindless antipathy is a result of believing...then I'm jolly glad I don't. I have friends who believe in all the different major religions and none, of every race, colour, creed and sexual persuasion; and they're all good people. So it isn't impossible to reconcile belief and reality.

Another thing that confuses me is the way "believers" seem to pick and choose what bits of their chosen religion they will observe. We are told that the Pope is God's representative on Earth, and speaks with the authentic word of our creator. So why is it that, although birth control is a real no-no according to the Vatican, the Italian birth rate is so low? The latest stuff about homosexuality has already been mentioned, and members of the Church of England have converted to Catholicism because of the C of E's acceptance of homosexual clergy. It's all so sad..why can't we all just get on with life, living it and trying to enjoy it, without being crammed full of prejudice we can all do better without.

Oh, almost forgot....MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!

Edited December 24, 2008 by molemot

[Paul C]

I'm Evil...

What if Jesus didn't exist in the first place...

the worlds largest child seriel killer...

mass murderer...

Dark Ages...

the devils work...

killed as witches...

hunted and murdered...

burned alive...

killed to a man...

Hitler...

Gypsies...

Homosexuals...

Herod...

Jesus...

Marilyn Monroe.

All together now:" We didn't start the fire..."

Question then:

Mr blobby had a Christmas number one in 1993 with "MrBlobby".

Does this make it 'Christmas music'? and if so, does that mean it's therefore 'crap'?

Apparently he was 'the first non-human' to get a christmas number one, quite a feat.

Sorry to go and make the thread all serious again.

[rogerch]

Another Tom Lehrer fan, I went through some of his today "The Vatican Rag", "National Brotherhood Week', etc before settling on "A Christmas Carol" to post in the "Merry Christmas Thread". Funny though they all are, and even "Send the Marines" the more than a strand of truth can become almost frightening. But like the man said, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

Roger

[Laura]

The blobby song was crap, not because it was released at Christmas but because it was just a dire attempt at music. Being number one in the chart at Christmas doesn't then make that a Christmas song, it's got to have bells in it for that

[Tony K]

Kimbers, the version of history you give comes from Protestant anti-Catholic propoganda.

Here's some reading:

From a Catholic scholar:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

From a Wiccan scholar:

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/burning_...ion_witches.htm

Cultural advances during the "dark" ages:

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/dark_ages.htm

Take it however you will. Hope you find it interesting.

Happy Christmas, and Winter Solstice!

From your truly Evil twin!

Edited December 24, 2008 by Tony K

[esprit350]

with refrence to the crappy christmas music I was refering to music which has been specially created to cash in on the season for example, slades merry xmas etc, wizards whish it could be christmas everyday , deck the halls etc etc

music that is just around at christmas does not count, hell one of my favorite songs by Leonard Cohen is at number one in the uk by some band called x factrory and two other versions of the same song are also in the charts I am told.

best version

[Vicki]

Christmas songs - the devils work I understand and therefore thats why they are shit.

But I thought the devil had the best tunes?

I'm an atheist and I love Christmas because it's a really happy time of year when everyone gets a present. Houses and town centres look pretty all lit up, there's always a party going on and people make the effort to come out. I love Christmas trees; decorations; mini mince-pies; sprouts (yes, really); the Royal Institution Christmas lectures; TV Christmas specials (Doctor Who!!) and many other things too numerous to list.

If anything, Christmas isn't commercial enough for me.

And on that bombshell... Happy Christmas all.