Esprit HCI questions??

[xwingftr]

Hello folks!

I've read lots of reviews / driving impressions on SE, S4, S4s, and V8 cars but, not much on the Giugiaro HCI model. I currently have a 78 911sc Targa and plan to add an Esprit to my garage in the future. I've read through the Fact File, LEW, and Yahoo lists for years' now and the day for "ownership" is nearing. I realize the body styles and refinement differ, but it sounds like the "fun - kick in the ass" factor is somewhat compatible. I live in Dade City, Fl. (North of Tampa), and air conditioning is a must for a daily driver (No AC in 911) so....at the risk of sounding like a wuss- how good are AC's in HCI's? There's recently been some absolutely beautiful samples for sale and its got me thinking about an HCI vice a post 87 car.

I'm amazed on how the Esprit community has become so tight and helpful with one another. Looking through the web, it's a great feeling to see how many other folks share the passion for such a unique and beautiful automobile. Thanks for your time and knowledge. Have a great day!

Johnny Zayas

Dade City, Fl

[WayneB]

Hi Johnny, the A/C in my 83 works as good as any old air conditioning setup in a low volume spotscar!

Dont expect to have icycles hanging off you

The vent also points at your knee

Seriously it does lower the interior temprature somewhat , but its not like the Fridgidare setup in my Buick, ice cold B)

[mchlrodrigues]

Johnny,

At the risk of lynching by Wayne and fellow Giugiaro owners, let me offer some advice. The HCI cars are the best of the Giugiaro cars, both with respect to components (forged pistons, HTD cam wheels, proper front suspension, 3" SS exhaust, etc.) and build quality.

Nothwithstanding, the pre Stevens cars had a Citroen transaxle, which is far weaker than the Renault UN1 people complain about, no charge cooler, and rather complicated engine management (Bosch CIS, adapted from who knows what) with meters of vacuum lines and a bunch of widgets and relays. Very Rube Goldberg. When everything works, fine, but there's a lot of undue complexity, and Lotus used CIS for only 3 years. Spares may be difficult to locate and you can bet they will be costly. The SE's are also considerably quicker.

The 86-87 cars are lighter and simpler than later models, and don't suffer the understeer of early SE's, but they're probably about 80% "right" rather than the "95%" of the later cars. Getting them sorted can be trying and expensive.

If you're a tinkerer, and like to come up with new solutions for things that could have been done better at the factory, charge on. But be aware what you're getting yourself into.

[mblommel]

Hi Johnny!

Funny that you are from Dade City, that's were I grew up. That would be the last place I would have thought I would see pop up on the Esprit forum.

I think the A/C on the G cars is pretty weak. A previous owner of my S1 went though the entire system replacing components. It has a newer compressor, switched over to R134 etc. In the summer it still can't quite keep up. While driving over from Orlando where we live to Dade City for the monthly car show in August my wife and I just about died from the heat.

I would suggest you would need to do a bit of re-engineering on any G-car to cope with the Florida summer heat. Especially with a turbo back there. That said, I still love my Esprit!

See you around,

Mike

[xwingftr]

Hello Mike,

It took some time for me to talk my wife into leaving South Tampa for Dade City. So far we are loving it. We usually take the baby downtown for the monthly drive in and he really digs it. We bought the old Lark Inn bed/breakfast on 14th and Meridian - the place needs a garage and then I'm going on the hunt for an Esprit. Next time you come over, you'll have to come over to show me the car.

Johnny

[WayneB]

Johnny,

At the risk of lynching by Wayne and fellow Giugiaro owners, let me offer some advice.

Edited November 14, 2005 by WayneB

[hovgaard]

The Esprits are not Porsches. I bet you are used to having everything working all the time and stuff like that.

If you plan to use the car on a daily basis, you might want to consider a later model. Say, like an S4 , which is also significantly quicker.

[WayneB]

Jens, a fair few of the Giugiaro owning forum members are using their cars ona daily basis( Slade ,Tiegan etc.)

We have a early 70s Porsche 911S in the collection

That bloody thing is one of the most unrelyable and cantankerous cars I have ever worked on.

Once more its homely looks endear it to no one(here)

Bought in a moment of stupidity, I will be burdened with its precence for eternity.(no one will buy it)

IMO the Giugiaros great styling, sharp handling and cool image are a worthy trade off for the Stevens increased relyability and performance(SE on)

However reading some of the postings in the Stevens technical room lately Im not sure they are that much more relyable than our antiques

[mblommel]

Mike wait there while I look for a rope

Ouch. I'm going to have to watch my constructive criticism of the Esprit around here lest I have a mob with torches and pitchforks at my door!

I can't really complain too much. So far the car has been almost faultless and an absolute blast to own.

I love my Esprit!

Hello Mike,

It took some time for me to talk my wife into leaving South Tampa for Dade City. So far we are loving it. We usually take the baby downtown for the monthly drive in  and he really digs it. We bought the old Lark Inn bed/breakfast on 14th and Meridian - the place needs a garage and then I'm going on the hunt for an Esprit. Next time you come over, you'll have to come over to show me the car.

Johnny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose good 'ol Dade City has made some strides since I lived there. With a lot of people moving out of Tampa the makeup of the citizenry has changed significantly.

I'll make sure to let you know next time I head that way. Maybe you can bring the 911 out to the show as well. We can park next to each other and then you, I and the guy who shows up with the red TVR 2500 can be the three "furin" car owners there. B)

Regards,

-Mike

[hovgaard]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I just felt that knock sensor, charge cooler, power steering, and being newer, make a better package for performance oriented everyday use . Then on the downside of the S4, we have the ABS

[xwingftr]

Mike,

I took a peek at you garage - beautiful car. That TVR is there every month, been meaning to introduce myself to the owner. I always hope to see a Lotus there but, no luck so far. Have you hooked up with the central fl lotus club? My 911 is mechanically sound but, needs a paint job in a desperate way (It may be a while to display). The downtown folks are putting lots of effort into the renovation of the area. The place is just my pace.

Johnny

[WayneB]

Then on the downside of the S4, we have the ABS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the Air Bag wheel , funny wings, extra weight, and Peter Stevens styling

Kerb weights:-

S1 898kg

S3 Turbo Esprit 1,148kg

SE 1,305kg

S4 1,339kg

S4S 1,460kg

V8 1,380kg

Wow ! the S4S is nearly twice the car the S1 is

Edited November 14, 2005 by WayneB

[hovgaard]

Quite. At least I have another steering wheel in mine, and I'm bent on getting a V8 wing. Extra weight? I'm still faster than you . Styling? All Esprits look good . What's so heavy on the S4s???

Edited November 14, 2005 by hovgaard

[WayneB]

Take wing off you will make it lighter

The wings arrived in the GM era a product of the marketing dept. no doubt

Yes, all Esprits look good, its just the Giugiaros that look fantastic B)

I would hope your car is faster its 10 yrs younger!

Dunno what the extra weight is on the S4s, it could be

Extra Luxury Padding

Bullet proof Glass

Dubb bass sound system

Lead lined glove box

Extra thick paint

[mchlrodrigues]

However reading some of the postings in the Stevens technical room lately Im not sure they are that much more relyable than our antiques    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prospective owners need to keep in mind that our cars not just 20 year old cars, but 20 year old Lotuses. Even new, they weren't as robust as the BMW's, Porsches and even VW's of their day, not that these cars can compare from a handling, styling or driving pleasure perspective.

How useable they are on a daily basis really depends upon how you drive them. They were "designed on the limit", which is a kind way of saying that Lotus selected the most cost effective components they thought they could get away with. Lotuses are not know for being "over engineered".

That being said, if you putter about or just drive it like a normal car it'll probably be fine. But why would one buy a car like one of these just for transportation?

I've flogged the sh*t out of mine, and have had just about every problem imagineable, ever since it was new. Twenty percent of the problems were probably inherent to the car, the other 80% from hard use and trying to get far more out of it than it was intended to give.

The Steven's cars, have better components, but they're still Lotuses. And being 10+ years old, are going to show their age unless meticulously maintained, which few owners do.

I'm not trying to put you off; I love mine or I wouldn't still own it. But you think about how you plan to use it, your motivation for a specific model (style, performance or cost), and how much time / money you're willing to devote to keeping it on the road. If you want S4S performance, buying an S4S will be much cheaper than upgrading a Giugiaro. If you love the Giugiaro's styling, the resign yourself to its lesser performance, and drive it accordingly. B)

[WayneB]

Sorry Michael, but my Giugiaro gives me alot of pleasure

I like driving it

I like Looking at it

I actually liked restoring it

I like tending to it when its sick (not that often)

I like showing people what a true British exotic car made in the early 80s Looks , Sounds, Goes like(all good)

It is a timeless classic B)

It was a dream come true to own my car and sofar it hasnt turned into a nightmare

Monty Python Arguement Sketch

Edited November 14, 2005 by WayneB

[catty s2]

Hi Johnny, the A/C in my 83 works as good as any old air conditioning setup in a low volume spotscar!

Dont expect to have icycles hanging off you

The vent also points at your knee

Seriously it does lower the interior temprature somewhat , but its not like the Fridgidare setup in my Buick, ice cold B)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But its bloody freezing in Canada?!

Edited November 14, 2005 by catty s2

[WayneB]

Only in the winters!, the summers here can be brutal 30 degrees C+

[hovgaard]

Wayne, it would seem more logical if you were 100 kg off on that S4s, would it not?

[mchlrodrigues]

And the Air Bag wheel , funny wings, extra weight, and Peter Stevens  styling  

Kerb weights:-

S1 898kg

S3 Turbo Esprit 1,148kg

SE 1,305kg

S4 1,339kg

S4S 1,460kg

V8 1,380kg

Wow ! the S4S is nearly twice the car the S1 is    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wayne,

Where did the weights come from? My service notes shows an S3 Turbo at 2700lbs kerb which would be 1227kg. Perhaps your weights are w/o fuel?

[mchlrodrigues]

Sorry Michael, but my Giugiaro gives me alot of pleasure

I like driving it

I like Looking at it

I actually liked restoring it

I like tending to it when its sick (not that often)

I like showing people what a true British exotic car made in the early 80s Looks , Sounds, Goes like(all good)

It is a timeless classic B)

It was a dream come true to own my car and sofar it hasnt turned into a nightmare  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said mine didn't give me pleasure driving it or solving it's shortcomings. More than half of my pleasure has come from rengineering it. But then, there are those (including my ex-wife) who've said I exhibit symptoms of obsessive - compulsive behavior.

I just want the poor chap to go into a purchase well informed with his eyes open. Poorly cared for and unloved Giugiaros at fire sale prices are in no one's best interest.

[TSD]

I traded 'up' from a MK2 Elise to an Esprit HCI. Fully agree with the previous posts.

My impressions:

+ superlative handling in the dry, with a very good compliant ride

+ fantastic looks

+ sense of occasion - feels much more special than a 911

+ easier to work on than you might think

But some things to keep in mind for a 30 year old design which I discovered the hard way:

1) Do not get caught mid-corner at 9/10ths when the boost comes on or you will do a 911 stylee 180 into the hedges. recovery of the tail end when it slips is harder than other cars I've driven partially due to the turbo, partially due to the heavy steering and wholly due to my skill...

2) due to one-piece body design, repairs are costly. I'm looking at 10KUSD for my mishap =:-O

3) due to turbo lag, elegant fast get-aways impossible

4) heavy steering and poor visibility means manouvering into parking spaces is a real PTA. I'm even going to look into a p/s upgrade at some point.

anyway good luck!

[mchlrodrigues]

Wayne, it would seem more logical if you were 100 kg off on that S4s, would it not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make a fair point Jens. A few items that add weight to an S4 over a Giugiaro

Charge Cooler system

Renault transaxle

Better brakes

Air bags

wing

ABS

Central Locking

Power Steering

Heavy exhaust, EBPV (exhaust back pressure valve)

Additional wiring, accessible fuses & relays

There could also be other odds and ends like a sound system, additional sound deadening, bigger wheels and tires.

Any Giugiaro could do well with a charge cooler, UN1 gearbox, better brakes and modern size wheels and tires. Add these items to a Giugiaro and remove the unnecessary items from an S4. Then how much is the weight difference?

Damn the weight, I'm even adding P/S on my car (even though I chucked the heater, A/C, spare tire and engine cover).

[mchlrodrigues]

I traded 'up' from a MK2 Elise to an Esprit HCI.  Fully agree with the previous posts.

1) Do not get caught mid-corner at 9/10ths when the boost comes on or you will do a 911 stylee 180 into the hedges.  recovery of the tail end when it slips is harder than other cars I've driven partially due to the turbo, partially due to the heavy steering and wholly due to my skill...

anyway good luck!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to hear that; ... I know the 180 maneuver all too well. Fortunately I went off into the ice plants incurring primarily undercarriage damage, and taking the spoiler, rear valence, radiator and oil cooler off on a fallen tree stump . . .

That was the first time in '91, though I swapped ends w/o mishap a couple of years ago testing turbos . . . found out that a 0.82 exhaust scroll is a little too abrupt . . .

If you still have the NCT's, toss 'em. They're rubbish. Install a set of green dot cam wheels and a ROW distributor ('86-87). The torque peak will fall 1000 RPM, the turbo will spool up quicker and the car will be more tractable.

[slade]

right, HCI daily driver here. No major mishaps in two years! She's never left me stranded, she's only been down for routine maintenance. Runs like a champ.

Ran to phoenix and back yesterday. 700 miles total, managed 25mpg and a steady 75mph average speed:D No problems at all.

Yeah, get used to turbo lag, but the performance is always there if you need it. just not as accessible as most cars.

I've done 180 before, not miles per hour rather unfortunately. first time drivin in rain.

slade

Edited November 15, 2005 by slade

[mchlrodrigues]

right, HCI daily driver here. No major mishaps in two years! She's never left me stranded, she's only been down for routine maintenance. Runs like a champ.

Ran to phoenix and back yesterday. 700 miles total, managed 25mpg and a steady 75mph average speed:D No problems at all.

Yeah, get used to turbo lag, but the performance is always there if you need it. just not as accessible as most cars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Congratulations on your good fortune.

As I said, drive them like a normal car they shouldn't give problems, but put them to hard use and . . . .

The turbo lag can be greatly diminished without increasing power or sacrificing reliability if one wishes. Look at my previous post plus remove the starter cat, swap to an ITG air filter and upgrade the turbo compressor side.