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Jonathan

Chargecooler experiments

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15-16c outside (measured with a thermocouple dangling outside the car window)

Took the car for 50 miles or so - hour or so on the road. Electric chargecooler pump fitted, radiator fins are extremely clear for max airflow.

Idea was to look at max, min and average temperatures from the chargecooler at different driving styles.

1st was a fast run up and down the motorway - about 10mins of spirited driving and as much boost as I could really maintain without going too fast :)

Min temp = 23c

max temp = 32c

Average temp = 26c

Max boost = 0.96 bar

So for somewhat spirited normal flat road driving a good average should be 10c above ambient

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2nd Run was up Wrotham hill using as much boost as I could using sustained boosting technique (ie keeping the throttle constant)

Hill is 170 meter elevation from top-bottom over 3.5 miles - average 70% load

MAT at approach to the hill = 24.5c

Peak MAT (and MAT at the top of the hill) = 34.3c

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3rd Run was back down that hill free wheeling.

I drove very slowly upto the hill using boost as sparsely as possible, once going down I coasted in neutral until speed got below 65 and then used 5th gear to keep it at about 60mph (so embarrising but all in the name of science).

Start MAT = 21.5c

End / lowest MAT = 18.5c (and for a long time I might add)

A spirited run at the end of the test moved the MAT back upto 24c - again fair to say 10c above ambient.

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Conclusions.

My reason for doing this was to find out the worst case and best case scenario for the chargecooler.

Worst case - I think I could hit low 40s with a longer hill but that was quite a climb and I certainly wasn't being kind to the boost gauge.

Best case - the chargecooler loses ~ 4-5c in the system, even running idle at 60mph the soak was enough to raise the temperature slightly.

Do the temps matter - YES, imo 5 degrees in the system is very much noticable on boost.

I must admit the results were better than I expected, the system deals with heat very well in standard form.

I definatly think if the pipes were run underneath the chassis in copper tubes you could help reduce the average temperatures.

I was intending to wrap the chargecooler body in aluminium foil but didn't have time - overall the rad does a great job of taking the heat out.

So there is a little bench mark - my system was totally cleaned out last year, the rad and chargecooler are flawless so they have very good air flow characteristics. The pump is high volume so the system should be low


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Jonathan,

Thanks for experimenting and taking the time to post. I have been reading the many threads of late with much interest. Just wanted you to know that I find them of interest. Also humour in watching the debates too...lol.

Christopher

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Nice numbers jono. cheers


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Cheers chappies :)

I always try and post facts and figures - we can all sit around and theorise all day long but the numbers from the ECU give a much better idea about what is going on.

I hope it helps someone along the line.

I must state again though my rad was only replaced about 1,500 miles ago and the chargecooler fins are perfectly clear and in very good condition, it's about as good as it's going to get in there with regards to cooling.


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It will be interesting to see what mine logs (have loaned my cable out at the moment( when i go to Dave Freeman's at the weekend as I've just fitted the double charge cooler and air con rad as just a charge cooler rad, so it may come out with quite a low MAT reading.

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Andy - the max boost temp and temps under sustained use of the right pedal.

During fast driving I dont think you'll see mat drift much past 10c aboveambient in a standard car, its when you're climbing a hill or fast cruising on german roads at 110mph or so where you see mat creep up, this is what affects the boost response and the turbo stress imo.

With the double rad (I got one of those too btw but not used it yet) I believe you'll see a significant drop in the max mat under sustained boost and a small decrese lower down / standard sprinting - be interested to see your results and I might make that mod to mine as well.


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15-16c outside (measured with a thermocouple dangling outside the car window)

Took the car for 50 miles or so - hour or so on the road. Electric chargecooler pump fitted, radiator fins are extremely clear for max airflow.

Idea was to look at max, min and average temperatures from the chargecooler at different driving styles.

1st was a fast run up and down the motorway - about 10mins of spirited driving and as much boost as I could really maintain without going too fast :lol:

Min temp = 23c

max temp = 32c

Average temp = 26c

Max boost = 0.96 bar

......

---------

Hi Jonathan - interesting figures - do you have any freescan logs/graphs to go with the summary above?

I have a carburettor turbo, and no chargecooler, but I've been doing some temperature, boost measurements, which are interesting to compare to yours.

(I have a home made logger to measure ambient and inlet manifold air temperatures, rpm, kmh and boost pressure).

I did a 20minute run with a short burst of boost on a bit of open road:

ambient was about 14C

inlet manifold air temp was about 20C before I got on the boost for a 10s blast in 2nd/3rd gear

peak inlet manifold air temperature was about 29C

Boost also peaked out at 0.96bar, though that was a transient on lift-off to change gears. The real peak is around 0.8bar

(see graph in attached pdf)

On other occasions, where the ambient temperature is higher, and I am on a longer run (1hour) the manifold air temperature rises steadily to 35-40C as things warm up, then peaks out at 45-50C when I get on the boost.

Could you post any graphs for comparison with mine?

PS (for Bibs comment below)

My inlet manifold air temperature (not exhaust temperature) is measured inside the plenum cover - the sensor is inserted in the plenum cover through the purge take-off.

My manifold air temperature should be much the same as the MAT

1Jun09_1.pdf

Edited by GreenLeader

Steve

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Dunno if I'm missing a trick here but your manifold should reach hundreds and hundreds of degrees under high boost situations, peak is 1200o and Jonathan is referring to the MAT (Mass Air Temp) and not manifold temp. For your MAT to not hit 30 degrees at almost a bar of boost without a chargecooler is nothing short of a miracle!


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Yes I've got the data in freescan format, you're welcome to look at it but my tests were done over a much longer time period - in total about 45-50mins so you'll see more heat soak and wide range of temperatures.

When hill climbing the turbo was on full boost for periods of long duration. In fairness to your results that only shows a quick spurt of power from 40-120 kmh so in that short amount of time the MAT readings wont get that high - if you sustained it (which is why I done a hill climb or I would have lost my licence rather quickly) I would expect that to easily get to 60c +

In which case I would be really careful with poking things into the plenum incase it gets weak and sucks into the engine itself !

It's really hot here so I might do another test sometime during my day off, but I think I can accuractly preduct it - I'm also fitting a MAT gauge in car to keep an eye on things.

wrt the data - I'll forward over the data to you if thats OK - I dont really have much time to create graphs and so on at the moment but be assured the findings above are correct, I dont see the point in publicising false info it serves no real purpose.

If I had a non chargecooler car I would def look at methanol injection or similar.


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Hi Jonathan,

I don't question the validity of your measurements, I'm merely interested in comparing behaviour of other cars to my own...

If you could send any freescan data, that would be great - I'd love to graph it for comparison with my data.

I am not sure how the response time of my temperature sensor compares to the factory MAT sensor, so that's something I can also gauge by looking at your freescan data.

Apart from the temperatures, I am also interested in the boost vs rpm behaviour. I expected to see my boost pressure hit the waste gate limit earlier, and then sit there for a few second, but it does not seem to do that as clearly as I thought it would.

I had a passing interest in water injection or fitting a chargecooler at one stage, but those sort of modifications are out of reach time-wise at the moment. There are more pressing maintenance things to be done first :D

I hadn't heard of methanol injection before though - what advantage does it have over water injection?


Steve

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No I didn't think you were - My post sounded like it was sugesting something though I guess, sorry :D

Response time - probably similar, although iI think the one in the car is a thermal resistor where a thermo couple you might have for measuing temperature normally is a voltage device.

Boost build depends on a lot of things, inlet temp, rpm, throttle position and so on - you have to take all these into account, if the engine is hot it will take time to build boost, consiquently you might never actually achieve max pressure if it is too hot. It will be different to the chargecoler cars becuase they also have an electronic bleed valve that opens to effectivly reduce the lag and build boost more quickly.

Methanol / alcohol evapourates more temperature - it's better than water, otherwise it is a similar idea, just using a better fluid...dunno whether it affects the burn either ?

PM me your e-mail addy and I'll send them over.


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