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Paula&Marcus

CEO(Bibs) should be neutral

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Hi All,

I personally feel quite uncomfortable about what was going on in the end of this topic "Electric Chargecooler Pump vs uprated impellor":

http://www.lotusespritforum.com/forums/ind...90&start=90

1. IMHO the CEO (Bibs) of a forum like this should not be too biased, I think its essential for this position to be as neutral and tolerant as possible ...

2. Simply closing a thread like he did after posting his own words is pure dictation IMHO !

I feel nobody should use the given power in a wrong and biased way ...

Sorry Bibs, but I feel that you have done something here that was not right.

Marcus

PS: I hope you are not simply deleting this topic now, or moving it somewhere where nobody will find it, please dont misuse the power you have.


Marcus

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i must say that i feel the same way as the above post.

im sure that puk sell some good items (as their web site shows) mine has an impellor from puk and its still looking good (i do use the blue antifreeze) Also after working in the food industry for 5 years the equipment standard i have seen is very high as traceability is very keen, and if paula & marcus have used a German manufacturer then it would be up to the tuv standard which is regarded as high.


It's Oogies turn to boogie

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Marcus - I've moved this topic to the correct section. It's not really a technical topic, no-one will see it where it was.

There is no need for me to be neutral and tolerant to someone who sold me a product which didn't live up to it's claims. I am a consumer the same as all the people on this site. You sold me, as a customer, a product which was mis-advertised (and in my humble opinion grossly overpriced) and I expect my money back. Since I run a website you're saying I should sit down and just accept this? No, you're a retailer and you have responsibilities to me, your customer. A function of this site is to help owners avoid products and indeed retailers who aren't up to standard.

In that thread you have reeled out excuse after excuse and it was going around in circles hence I closed it rather than hear another excuse from you. We've had this in the past with your turbo's and your clutches, you cannot substantiate claims made on your website and I will not allow you to use this forum to attempt to mitigate this in your roundabout way. You should test, test and test again and be able to offer these products with confidence, something which I believe you cannot do as you don't know enough about it yourself. Remind me how you know your 35% uprated clutches can take '35%' more power/torque? Ever tested one, or was it 'I just know'! Hilarious! In the UK you'd be sued for that, any claims made must be true and not just educated guesses.

A forum is often referred to as 'benevolent dictatorship' but I am confident that the members on here do not see me as a dictator, more of the benevolent type. Just because I closed a thread and you aren't happy with it doesn't make me a dictator however there are rules and sensibilities to which I run this forum and if you don't like them then I'm sorry but that's your problem, not mine.

Pete - I don't think the fact the impeller is hygienic and suitable for food applications means anything in relation to it being in a car cooling system, it's a completely different application. Did the manufacturer consider it may be used in a car when they designed it or is it a happy coincidence that it's the right size and fits in the hole? That doesn't make it good, it makes it compatible and you can see by the fact it's failed in some of the cars that indeed it's not suitable for the job.


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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The Lotus one is a service item, it's meant to be changed every 20,000 miles. If you read that thread, you'll see that the electric route is the one I've chosen and will be the one I recommend in the future.


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Hi All, Hi Bibs,

JFYI the impellor is produced by a company that usually produces PU and rubber components for the food industry, but its not a standard of the shelf part at all.

It is produced custom made only for the Esprit application. There have been drawings and prototypes before and it was also made sure that it holds up in very hot coolant environment.

Marcus


Marcus

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IMG_0597.jpg

Proof of the pudding if you'll excuse the pun...


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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Can i myself be unbiased?

I'm sat on bib's sofa and it does not feel like i'm in the company of a dictator.

Regardless of who is 'right' or who is 'wrong', when a thread goes round and round

in circles, endlessly looping, then it should be shut down as the whole point of it was

lost.

This forum is read by and contains advice direct from the factory, Any advise that goes

against the service advice of lotus cars, regardless of how often it is repeated, and

especially if the advice is only to prolong the life of an item that will perish if factory

advice is followed, should be questioned.

The chance to answer was there. The chance to explain was there for weeks. The

thread was chasing it's own tail long before everyone got bored with the futility of

it.

Bib's does more for esprit owners than possibly anyone ever has. If something is

bad for the cars then he will take issue about it, he will chase for an answer, he will

get advice from the factory, he will question until an adequate answer is given. And

if that does not happen then he will lock the thread and leave the circus up there for

everyone to see, hiding nothing, leaving Esprit owners to decide.

Thats not dictatorship.

off for breakfast now, hopefully Bib's will not dictate how i should have my eggs.

:rolleyes:

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I agree that the original thread should not have been closed, locking threads should be reserved for when they get truly out of hand. IMHO I do not consider that this particular one had quite got that far.

I do not think Bibs is biased in the thread, just that he is a disgruntled customer. I can see both points of view regarding the items suitability; i.e. the customer thought he was getting a 'fit and forget' solution, the vendor supplied an item compatible with the published recommended coolant.

Certainly I think that some warning about compatibility needs to be now added to the advert following the findings of the failure investigation.

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Marcus

The mater of fact this product was sold by you / R&B as life time product hence the high price, and certainly no mention of not using OAT coolant. Now there is a problem I feel we have been left high and dry. This is the time you see how good a vendor is and see how they handle problems. You as a vendor have a responsibility to your customers, if you decide not to resolve issues then that's up to you but you can't expect return custom or good reviews...non?

As Bibs has said he is also a consumer so he has as much right as anyone else to complain and after all it is his 'house' and has to put a lot of time and energy into this site. As far as locking the thread well it was going round in circles and it seemed obvious from your posts that you had your say and had no plans to resolve the issue, right? like to be proved wrong though, from disgruntled customers so was it a good plan for other members and even new members to see a topic slide into a slanging match? What kind of light would that show this site and even the people involved?


1982 DeLorean DMC 12 #16327, 1999 Lotus Elise, 1998 Lotus Esprit GT3 #2272, 2011 Lotus Evora S, 2013 Lotus Exige S,2016 Lotus Evora 400

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There was a simple resolution to the problems Bibs and others who have purchased the product from yourself Marcus.

Find out exactly what the factory recommends coolant wise by calling the technical advise number supplied on the forum, which you haven't seem to have done.

Testing the product with OAT which you seem to have done and confirmed it is not compatable.

Offer a refund to all who have had an issue with the product.

Then either redevelop the product to work with the newly recomended coolant or updated your website informing the consumer that your product is not compatible with the OAT antifreeze.

This is the statement that is STILL on your website.

The perfect condition of the impellor inside the charge-cooler pump is essential to achieve the intended performance from your engine. Sadly the stock black rubber impeller deteriorates slowly as you drive, progressively robbing power. Replacing the deteriorated impeller with a very well made one will instantly give your beloved her wings back. This impeller is custom made using the highest PU-quality and most appropriate Polyurethane compound, so that you don't have to change it all over again later.

This is a new design that will virtually last forever. All edges are rounded.

New ! - comes with proper paper gasket, now !

You have not mentioned the problems faced by using certain coolants and so are still selling them with consumer unawares of the problems they may well face.

There was, and still is, no need for this to escalate any further than it already has.

Locking of threads is needed if they are getting no where they just keep going over the same things again and again, its pointless.


Chunky Lover

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Marcus, I'm struggling to see where Bibs was biased. He just presented the facts as he saw them.

The impellor he bought from you failed very quickly - within a few months. This was while he was using Lotus approved type of coolant, in his case OAT.

The impellor I bought from you failed very quickly - within a few months. This was while I was using Lotus approved type of coolant, in my case non-OAT.

I would have thought you could have cleared this up very quickly by acknowledging there may be a problem and making a goodwill gesture to anyone who had an issue with your supplied part, in the meantime you could research materials which won't fail after a few months. I know you will say that the impellor has undergone testing and found to be a longlife item, but my own real world experience convinces me otherwise. Remember, mine failed using normal coolant.

Commercially you do very well from this forum despite not actually having any paid for advertisements on here, therefore I'd suggest it would be prudent to maintain your good reputation within the Esprit community and work with owners to find a resolution. This would benefit all concerned.

I'll be happy to hear your responses to all the contributors to this thread, but if it starts to dengenerate into either a slanging match or another case of Merry Go Rounds, I'll be the one locking it.

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Bibs,

Is the 4cyl turbo exhaust manifold a Lotus service item? Does it need to be changed every XXX miles? Is it designed to crack? When the new one brakes down, do you stop ordering parts from Lotus? Do you get a free new one or a refund?

Marcus,

If the service manual refers to use the Castrol coolant than your product must be tested with this coolant. If it brakes down with this coolant, have the broken down parts examined. If you can't solve the problem, redraw the part.

Lotus,

If you recommend to use OAT coolant in the future, than as a constructor you will have to do FMEA (failure mode and effect) analysis. That will recommend changes and or different maintenance to the engine to be reliable. (in this case the use of an electric charge cooler pump is a possibility)

This change of fluid will have to follow an Management of change route. To be sure nobody does the half thing, you will have to update the maintenance manual. If you use OAT, than you will have to do 1

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Peter,

If my Lotus manifold failed within months of fitting then I certainly would send it back and have a new one fitted for free.

If it's done 20,000 miles then clearly not. To my knowledge Lotus do NOT give the product and lifetime guarantee.

Let's not forget that this site belongs to Bibs and is a result of his hard work. It is not ours, and if he wanted to switch it off tonight then he could ( where would we all go then? )

Closing the thread is a minor issue. He has left it visible and has not stopped anyone ( eg Marcus ) from continuing to post other threads.

Lets all play nicely and value this exceptional resource


Wing Commander Dibble DFC<br /><br />
North Midlands Esprit Group<br /><br />
NMEG "the formidable squadron"<br /><br />
"probably the most active Esprit group in the world" Andy Betts, Castle Combe May 2007

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Peter - No idea why you're asking me questions about manifolds? That has no relevance to this thread or indeed to me, I've not fitted one to my car and it's failed after being told it will last virtually forever.

Marcus, moving back to the point of this thread, why do you think I should be 'neutral' and why do you think you can ask this of me, what gives you such a right? I am an Esprit owner like everyone else on here, I spend my money on products for my car and have the same rights as everyone else, this website isn't 'Which?'. You are a retailer who makes lots of money from people, me included and I believe this product is substandard and expect recourse as anyone else would. Funnily enough right after I have a problem with a PUK Esprit product you try to insist that I am not allowed an opinion! Sorry mate, if anything you shouldn't be allowed an opinion on your products on here as you have a vested interest, it's your business and therefore will not give anything but what you think you should say, right or not and your opinions will always be 100% one sided, mine won't.

This website will continue to champion the interests of Esprit owners, I will continue to offer opinion based on my direct experience and knowledge and will allow other owners to do the same. Without that, we're all wasting our time trying to help one another so don't ask me to change this.


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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Bibs,

Is the 4cyl turbo exhaust manifold a Lotus service item? Does it need to be changed every XXX miles? Is it designed to crack? When the new one brakes down, do you stop ordering parts from Lotus? Do you get a free new one or a refund?

Peter.

Huh? That doesn't make sense? Manifolds crack for various reasons, on any car. It's a part under extremes of heat and stress.

An impellor in the Chargecooler is designed to be changed every 20,000 miles during a major service! Are you saying that if you don't change an oil filter during a service and it fails that it's the fault of the part? Of course not it's the person who decided to save a few quid and not change the filter during the service. If Lotus say it's a service part, then it's a service part and as long as it does what they say it should then thats fine!

As for this thread, well, under EU law if the goods are faulty or don't do what the manufacturer claims then the client should be due a refund or a replacement part. However, if the part design is faulty then IMHO the vendor needs to refund and get the part redesigned. It doesn't make business sense to continue with a faulty part and not refunding because, ultimately, you will run out of people to buy the part or they will hear from dissatisfied customers and decide not to buy it anyway!

Bibs isn't being biased. He has a right as your customer to state his dissatisfaction with the product and service offered. Surely the best way to stop this is to refund the money?????


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As far as I'm concerned, Bibs pays for this forum. He puts in an enormous amount of time running it, updating software, improving ti. He also puts an enormous amount of time helping members by organizing events, working with the factory on behalf of Esprit owners everywhere. So, if he wants to be a dictator on his own forum, he can be. He does not need to justify himself.

As for Marcus, he's selling parts to Esprit owners and using this site helps him do that yet he can't even be bothered to shell out and become a full, paid-up member of the forum.

I am pretty sure I know who of the two is on my side and who is looking after number 1.


S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

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I don't know the technical in's and out's, but...

1. If you sell products via a free forum be happy with your lot.

2. It's Bibs train set, so if he had wanted he could do pretty much what he wants. The fact he's entered into this debate shows he isn't a dictator.

Surely the forum is for enjoyment of all things Esprit.

Mark


Look what Q's brought us. Isn't it nice!

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Bibs - YOU ARE LEGEND!

I have an electric chargecooler pump.

Marcus - have you reimbursed the punters who have bought faulty goods? I suggest you do as a retailer/vendor and as a gesture of your goodwill to 'customers'.


2009 World Singstar Champion

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I would at the very least expect to see the problem items withdrawn from sale until a satisfactory replacement product is found. It would be such a huge plus point for the vendor to be seen to be doing the right thing here, whereas what we are seeing is fudge and bluff hoping for the storm to blow over. IMHO he is doing himself no favours for the sake of a few euros. Mud sticks.

Personally I have always felt uncomfortable with vendors pitching their wares on the forum, especially when someone newish pops up with a query and someone else gives the kneejerk reply "see XX, he'll sort you out", neglecting to mention the fact the product can be obtained elsewhere, often cheaper.

As for staying neutral, the "name and shame" thing is highly emotive on forums, personally as a vulnerable consumer I'm all for it to keep the big boys on their toes. I only hope that if anyone else has received poor service they will be allowed the same platform. I receieved some dowright despicable service from a dealer when buying my car; I notice he now deals as a Lotus "specialist" now that his former bread and butter TVRs have died out, and am dreading for his name to be mentioned in our circles. Despite his email threats and solicitors letters I would have great difficulty not forewarning other punters.


In the garage no-one can hear you scream 

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In all honesty I am totally in agreement with Bibs. The thread was going nowhere, Bibs started the thread and it had run it's course, what else was there to add ??

I can't see how he has been biased or a dictator in anyway, in retrospect I think he's been leneant !

Bibs runs this site and along with other key community members past and present (Andy Whitaker, Dermot, Kato + others I fail to mention but also include Lotus staff such as Brian) help make owning an Esprit fun and affordable, there is no way many of us could afford to run a car like this without the help and support of these sites and indeed Lotus themselves. it runs on a lot of good will.

One of Bibs responsibilities as the owner of the site is to get a 'good deal' for people who use and pay to be members. If he's not making light of problems with a product he's not doing his 'job' as it were - thats not being biased, thats looking out for the members of the site.

In this case clearly the OAT coolant has ate the impeller, so give the guy a refund out of good will, dragging this through the mud as it were is only having a negative effect. By hoping it will go away is just bad business imo.

I think it's great people like you support the Esprit comunity but in silly cases like this, as Mark says, mud sticks.

At the very least the product needs re-labeling on the site to indicate it is not compatable with all coolants, anything less is simply misleading and could be regarded as fraud.

In comparison - SW lotus centre sent me a duff inlet manifold, after I called them last friday, they sent another one out which arrived in under 24 hrs (saturday delivery is not cheap) without asking for the old one back or complaining - thats good customer service and why I will use them again - sometimes the customer is right and you have to take a hit, ups and downs of business I'm affraid - after all I could have damaged it myself !

Personally I think Bibs does a 100% A1, top score job of running this site, and after all it is his house, his rules - if you don't like it.....


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As has been said...it's Bibs' train set, creation, football,what you will...and he lets us play on it. It is without doubt the most authoritative source of Esprit gen. ever, and of immense importance to the continued serviceability of the cars we love. I, too, and not happy with people using it for free advertising and sales purposes...most of the recommendations we see on it have counterblasts to them, and people have to make their own judgements.

There is no "requirement" for the prime mover of a web forum such as this to be unbiased, in any case...although, if they were strongly biased, then the membership would surely decline. I have detected no such bias in our Esteemed Leader and proffer him my continued support. Assuming he's ruptured in the first place!

(Sorry, folks, it was that early diet of Goon Shows, I tell you!!!)


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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I have come in on the back of this, and I have not read all the threads.

This whole thread is sad and pityfall, we have better things to discuss. Bibs is right, he is a customer and he should get his money back. For goodness sake pull the product from the market until you get is sorted - because I for one would not buy anything from you because of your attitude. Any decent business would now be.....................

1) pulling the product and re designing

2) Offering an apology, assuming you want to still sell stuff thro the forum.

3) Offering money back to those who have purchased.

4) full unequivocal apology to all concerned

5) Making a gesture to the forum, become a full member.

You are loosing face, make the move now.

Dave

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In this case clearly the OAT coolant has ate the impeller, so give the guy a refund out of good will, dragging this through the mud as it were is only having a negative effect. By hoping it will go away is just bad business imo.

I think it's great people like you support the Esprit comunity but in silly cases like this, as Mark says, mud sticks.

At the very least the product needs re-labeling on the site to indicate it is not compatable with all coolants, anything less is simply misleading and could be regarded as fraud.

Jon, I'm just going to quote your comments here and make a reminder that my PUK supplied uprated impellor failed too and within a similar timeframe to Bibs'. I am not using OAT coolant in my car, just normal ethylene glycol anitfreeze.

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Slightly different view to many, having read all the posts on both threads.

All suppliers supporting our car's do deserve some level of appreciation and understanding, even though they are trying to make money from us. I am sure Marus could go after a much larger market than ours for parts sales, if he so wished, meaning one business supporting our cars and there are few enough of these already.

I dont know the back ground to Bibs other comments (eg clutch testing and rating) and if there are other underlying issues we are not privi to. It does not come across well for either side and I'm not sure if the monderators would have allowed these comments from other people. I'm not saying Bibs is wrong but its exception to see this type of thread on here.

Having said that, I do think the situation could have been resolved amicabiley.

The impellor advert should have been pulled while the issue was investigated.

The advert should be altered with a disclaimer for coolant.

Marcus should be a paid member on the forum given the cost/benefit he gets.

The situation was to some degree un-forseen and is very unfortunate but we shouldn't discourage people from developing improved products

If a ful coolant compatable impellor would have been made avaiable - This should have been offered at a sizable discount

As this doesnt appear to be the case it could be argued that some level of compensation should be made available or Marcus buys a bulk load of electric charge coolers and sells those at a discounted price to those who have purchased the new type impellor.

Either way, as a forum we should be understanding, unless we have been intentionally mis-sold and as a business Marus should be looking at way to mitigate the frustration this situation has clear caused.

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