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Hegg

Temperature Keeps Climbing

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Hegg - WOW! Even though it is not perfect, that is one of the most undisturbed S1s I have seen in a while; I can see the tartan interior through the glass! (and chrome mirrors, sponge bumpers, emissions equipment, etc. -- even if not all of these are desirable, I'd imagine that if you car is that original cosmetically, it has probably been left alone mechanically, too? --fewer previous owner "repairs" to undo . . )

Thanks for posting! :P

Good luck with the cooling stuff . . .

- T


Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

When I rebuilt the water pump on my 910 , I used a kit from Dave Bean Engineering.

When the kit arrived, I noticed it was labled for a 907 .

I called them and was told the pumps are the same specs on both engines.

I installed the kit, and have had no problems since. :D

Interesting that the early S1 cars had a different pump.

How does it differ? :lol:


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When I rebuilt the water pump on my 910 , I used a kit from Dave Bean Engineering.

When the kit arrived, I noticed it was labled for a 907 .

I called them and was told the pumps are the same specs on both engines.

I installed the kit, and have had no problems since. :D

Interesting that the early S1 cars had a different pump.

How does it differ? :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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Hegg - WOW!  Even though it is not perfect, that is one of the most undisturbed S1s I have seen in a while;  I can see the tartan interior through the glass!  (and chrome mirrors, sponge bumpers, emissions equipment, etc. -- even if not all of these are desirable, I'd imagine that if you car is that original cosmetically, it has probably been left alone mechanically, too? --fewer previous owner "repairs" to undo . . )

Thanks for posting!  :lol:

Good luck with the cooling stuff . . .

- T

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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It has always been my assumption that everyone on the S1S2 yahoogroup was not mistaken about the water pump upgrade;
Edited by Hegg

2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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Where are you located?

As for your fabrics, I hope someone here has a solution, but I'll do some looking around. I once found a place still making the old Porsche "pasha" (checkerboard) interior fabric for a 928 I was looking at...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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Hegg, Your water pump looks identical to mine. :D

What kind of hideous varmint chewed up your back bumper?  :lol:  :D  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Premier Shipping from California. They damaged it and refused to compensate.


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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Just FYI, I called and talked to someone at Dave Bean who had a few suggestions. He also seemed more of the opinion that the 907 pump I have is adequate for the job and most customers have not had dramatic results in upgrading to a "bigger" pump, like the turbo pump.

Of course he suggested using the pyrometer dealie to make sure that the gauge is reading hot when it actually is hot. But more interestingly, he suggested checking the airflow of the radiator fans to make sure they are pulling air back instead of pushing forward. I think I noticed last night that they were blowing air towards the front of the car which I thought was odd. I'll double check tonight.

He mentioned that others have had good success with putting in an inline coolant filter. He suggested the Gano Filter. I don't know exactly which one to get, but found a link to one on a Mustang site:

http://www.trophymustang.com/product_info....products_id=986

He also added that I should check the otter switch that controls the cooling fans.

Just thought I'd share.


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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But more interestingly, he suggested checking the airflow of the radiator fans to make sure they are pulling air back instead of pushing forward.  I think I noticed last night that they were blowing air towards the front of the car which I thought was odd.  I'll double check tonight.

Thats good advice! If the plugs are not polarity gendered then i suppose

it would be easy to take them apart (eg to fit a new rad?) and reconnect

them the wrong way round...

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I know the plugs on the S3 fans are idiot proof, but not sure on the S1.

Wouldnt hurt at this stage to try reversing them from the polarity they are at the moment.

That Paul C is quite clever :lol:


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Love both your cars. THe Elan reminds me of my old +2S of 1968 vintage. A lovely car.

To test which way your fans blow, jack up the front of the car and run the engine until they come on. Then hold some tissue paper such as kitchen towel behind the fan and see if it is sucked into the fan or blown away from it. No need to get too close to the fan.


S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

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Or you could crawl under the car , stick your fingures in the running fans and which ever way the blood sprays indicates whether they are suckin or blowin :D:lol:


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I would definitely check fan polarity (and that all three are running), but if the car is moving and the fans are not running, it would not heat up while driving, especially in cold temperatures. So, does your otter switch work properly, or are your fans stuck running all the time?

The idea of an esprit overheating in freezing temperatures says blockage to me. (. . . or electrical issue with the gauge :D )

A couple of other suggestions:

- any chance that the water pump impeller is touching the inside cavity from lack of clearance, or the impeller or pulley are loose on the shaft?

- Take a careful look at how the hoses are routed - maybe something is plumbed incorrectly.

- Feel all of the hoses for an obstruction in them.

- remove the thermostat and open the cooling system at one point and run a garden hose through it forward, see if you get free flow through the system. Open system at a few select points and flush backward from each, see if crud comes out.

- maybe temperature sending unit is the wrong part?

- If you haven't already, give a chemical flush a serious try. I have had great success with other cars with products like "prestone super flush", etc. To do it right, you have to flush the entire system and fill it with just distilled water before adding the chemical. They say on the instructions to run the engine 10 minutes or half an hour or something, but I got dramatic results by leaving it in for a couple of weeks and driving the car daily. Run higher rpms and rev it a bit, too. I did this with a 944, a Fiero, and a Caravan, and for all of them, the normal operating temperature dropped steadily little by little over the course of a week or two. Don't leave it in longer than a week or two, though, as it might eat away gaskets, too.

- A good place to look for crap that has been lodged is in the entrance to the radiator. Any larger collections of crud that built up inside the hoses may flow freely through the system until they reach the tiny slots of the radiator core; they can blanket the whole column of little rows in a small amount of time (especially our "short" radiators!). Remove radiator and inspect visually the best you can. Flush radiator by itself backwards. Probably wanna try this before doing the chemical thing.

- all hail the temperature gun thingy! -- uh, I mean pyrometer! :lol:

Keep us posted!


Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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Another suggestion (well, kind of a story), building on my post above:

A good friend of mine bought an S1 that had been sitting for a number of years not running and returned it to the road. In the time it sat, the fuel in the tanks dried up. With fresh gasoline in the tanks, it began to soften what had dried at the bottom of the tanks. What then happened was that bits of "gel" of formerly dried fuel sat/floated around in the gas tanks, and would get sucked out of the tank and into the fuel filters.

We would be cruising along, and all of a sudden the car would stall because the fuel filter had become entirely clogged almost instantly as some gelled fuel crud got sucked out of the tank. I changed fuel filters in his car so many times I lost count. I changed fuel filters in parking lots, gas stations, in a stranger's driveway, on the side of the road, you name it. It got to the point that I made him switch to a larger filter and keep several of them plus the necessary hand tools in the car at all times.

A couple of other early Esprit owners suggested having the inside of the tanks lined, but he doesn't trust that stuff (and I'm not sure if I trust it for the long run). Besides, it seemed like a "cheap" (improper) fix to me. My suggestion was to remove the tanks from the car and fill them with something harsher than gasoline that would dissolve or at least loosen all of the gelled fuel and then just flush/shake the stuff out of the top.

It seemed like it would never end. He was prepared to buy a pair of new fuel tanks, but no vendor had them. Every time we were about to take the tanks out and clean them, it would stop clogging the filters just long enough to make us say "maybe that's the last of it". . . . and then *sputter - sputter - die* . . . here we go again.

Ultimately one of our esteemed vendors got a hold of a "new" gas tank and sold it to him. He installed it himself and ran with just one tank until he sold the car shortly thereafter (for reasons not related to the car). The "new" tank, which I never saw as I had moved away by this point, clogged a few fuel filters for him, too. He later believed that the esteemed vendor sold him a refurbished (i.e. painted on the outside) old tank and just said it was "new".

What does this have to do with Hegg's car?

Your car sat for many years. I'd be pretty willing to bet that, all those years that it sat, it probably did not have phosphate-free coolant in it. Even if it did, coolant back then only lasted a couple of years. There was a lot of time for a lot of crud to develop inside the car. Perhaps a lot of crud developed inside the cooling system, and, like my friend's fuel system, now that the car is being used that stuff is breaking free and flowing about, plugging something up?

About a year ago I bought an engine from a low-mileage wrecked Eclat that had been sitting for a few years. I partially "tore it down" to clean and check everything, and while the cooling passages of the engine itself were pretty clean, the insides of the hoses that were attached to the engine when I got it were heavily caked with greyish-colored crud. I don't know whether this is the result of phospate or non-phospate coolant or what; point is, hoses of a car that has been sitting may have serious crap in them.

Cheers,

Tony


Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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My memory is hazy on this one but I'm sure Tim Engel posted on the Yahoo S1S2S3 group that you CAN'T run the engine with the thermostat removed, it does something to the circuit the water flows round. Please see following taken from the Yahoo Group:

Overheating Diagnosis

"Tim Engel" <[email protected]>

Mark Belchamber <[email protected]> wrote:

No blockage to heater matrix, no thermostat (temporary measure) and the whole thing's been flushed. All pipes are clear and I've back and forward flushed it all.

PUT THE THERMOSTAT BACK IN !! Regardless of whatever else may be wrong, the system will not work properly without the thermostat! Really! Running without the thermostat will just compound your witch hunt.

The only suspicious thing is the fact that I can't SEE the coolant flowing through the header tank. I can't feel the water flowing from the large bottom hose to the smaller hose going to the header tank, which splits to the larger pipe going to the thermostat via that metal angled bit. It's almost as if the water is static, NOT moving.

The header tank is plumbed into the cabin heater circuit. If the cabin heater is off, there will be no flow through the smaller hoses (3/4 inch ID) attached to the header tank. Flow in that circuit starts at the rear of the cylinder head on some vintages, on the rear of the intake manifold water passage on other vintages. Either way, water leaves the rear of the engine, flows through the heater valve and heater core (matrix). Then it returns via a copper pipe routed across the face of the firewall to the left side of the engine where it turns forward. A 3/4 inch hose attaches there and runs forward along side the engine, through the header tank and down to the lower radiator return hose.

If the heater valve is off, there should be no flow through the header tank. That's normal. If the valve is on and there is no flow, the heater core is probably plugged with sediment.

I've had the pump off and it seems O.K. and the water pump belt turns fine. Should I be able to see the water flowing with the header tank cap off?

See my comments above... only if the heater valve is open and the heater core is not plugged.

If I run the pump and block off all the outlets, should I feel it trying to push air?

Doesn't seem like a meaningful test, but yes... if you drain the system, disconnect the lower radiator hose, remove the thermostat and it's housing/cover and spin the pump fast enough, you should feel a flow of air entering the inlet (where the lower radiator hose attaches to the pump and exiting the open thermostat housing. That's a lot of work for something that won't tell you much about the general status of the complete cooling system.

I've taken the water pump off again and discovered that the impeller vanes are arced in a loose 'C' shape. The direction of the belt makes the vanes stroke the water (i.e. the back of the 'C' strikes the water.) Now I would have thought that to get maximum pumping effect, the vanes should cut into the water - i.e. the open face of the 'C' strikes first.

It's a centrifugal pump. The water enters the pump via the lower radiator hose and is routed internally to the center of the front side of the impeller. Centrifugal force (which really doesn't exist, but we'll avoid the physics for now... ) throws the water radially outward along the rotor vanes until it exits at the perimeter of the rotor.

Backwards curved blades are a way of slowing the water velocity and increasing pressure. Forwarded curved blades would increase velocity and decrease pressure. In a water pump, pressure is usually more important than velocity and the blades are curved backward. In "some" air fans, high velocity is the goal and the blades are curved forward.

It may (?) be possible to press the rotor onto the shaft backwards, but then it would not fit into the scroll housing. The rotor just will not fit into the housing backwards... without some serious creativity. When the pump is removed, you should see a flat, round face of the rotor's backside. Between it and the scroll housing you should see the ends of the vanes. The combination of the housing, the rotor back plate and the vane walls should create a series of radial water passages that exit all around the perimeter of the rotor. If you actually have a full length view of all the vanes staring back at you, there is something seriously wrong with how the pump was assembled... and you've probably found your problem. But I don't think the rotor can be assembled into the housing that way.

The water does not get pumped efficiently from lower rad. hose - water pump - thermostat housing with the t'stat removed even if I block off the little pipe going up to the header tank. However when the engine is turned off, the water all runs out of the bottom hose. This indicates to me that _some_ pumping is beng attempted, but it is inadequate.

With the thermostat out, IT WON'T !!

The normal circulation enters from the lower radiator hose to the center of the front of the impeller. Radially outward through the impeller into the scroll housing. The back half of the scroll housing is cast into the front face of the engine block. On the right side (carb side) of the block/scroll housing there is a rectangular hole that leads into the block's water jacket. Coolant passes through there, into the block, up into the cylinder head and

out into the intake manifold's water passage. A rubber hose connects that passage back to the thermostat housing.

When the engine is cold and the thermostat is closed, the coolant can't leave the engine and go to the radiator. Instead it is shunted back to the front of the impeller and recirculated.

The proper thermostat has a round disk added towards the bottom. When it's installed, the disk blocks off (partitions) the internal water discharge passage in the pump. Water leaving the impeller hits the bottom of that disk and is forced to turn 90 degrees and go through the rectangular opening that leads into the block. Water returning from the intake manifold hits the top side of the disk and a portion is diverted back to the front of the impeller and is recirculated.

With the THERMOSTAT REMOVED from the housing, there is nothing to force the water from the impeller to turn and flow through the rectangular hole and into the engine. It would rather just recirculate. Flowing water does not like to turn and it will take the path of least resistance. That does not include a 90 degree turn into the engine. When the thermostat finally opens, the water has a second alternative path through the radiator and back to the pump inlet. Most of the pump discharge water will either recirculate or go directly through the radiator. Relatively little will circulate through the engine. The engine is not sufficiently cooled and quickly over-heats.

That's why it's important to never run a 907/ 910/ 912/ etc without a thermostat installed. That little diverter disk is vital. SO PUT THE THERMOSTAT BACK IN!! Several people have made the point to you that the 907 needs a thermostat, yet you are still trying to run without one. If you are not willing to install a NEW, LOW TEMPERATURE thermostat, I strongly recommend you stop trying to diagnose the problem yourself and take the car to a garage that knows Lotus engines.

1) Does anyone know which way round the vanes should be?

Curved backwards relative to the direction of rotation... just as they are.

2) Is there a way of reversing the belt direction by the addition of a small pulley near the pump (everything runs clockwise at the moment and the pump needs to be going the other way, I think)

No, it's running the correct way as it is.

3) Has the P.O. put the wrong pump on (maybe Esprit vanes point a different way but the pump is similar in every other respect)

No, all 907's are created equal in that regard. It doesn't make any difference if the engine is installed in an Elite/Eclat, Esprit, Jensen or Sunbeam. The pumps all turn clockwise.

4) Can you get replacement impellers?

I believe they only come as part of a complete pump rebuild kit.

5) Am I completely misleading myself?

Yes

- has anyone come up against this and discovered it's an entirely different problem ?

I would be very concerned that IF the problem was originally minor, it may now have mushroomed into a bigger problem. From the sound of it, the engine has now over-heated several times. The aluminum head is sensitive to over-heating and can warp or blow the head gasket fairly easily. In that case, one of the symptoms would be chronic over-heating. A mechanic could perform a pressure test that would indicate if the head gasket were blown. If the engine has seriously over-heated, the valve seats can loosen and drop out of the head (voice of experience).

I've just noticed that the hole _behind_ the water pump (water is directed to it via a snail shaped funnel) doesn't have water going anywhere. It seems to be a channel > that leads to nowhere.

Rectangular hole? That should be the passage into the cylinder block. That's the main route for all the cooling water into the engine. What do you mean it doesn't go anywhere? Is it blocked? If you look into it you should see the #1 cylinder liner.

Now I also notice to the right of the upper part of the w/pump on the cylinder head a blanked off hole. This looks suspiciously like a good point for a bottom radiator hose to go to if the blanking plug (if that is what it is) were removed. That way I would have water going from the pump, round the engine, to the lower hose.

NO

At the moment water could just be swirling round the pump and going up its own backside.

No, not because of the frost plug not being a connection... Yes, similar scenario, but because the thermostat is not installed...

Water flows FROM the lower radiator hose TO the pump. Not the other way around. The blanked off hole is just a frost plug. In the turbo engines and later 912's that use the uprated turbo water pump, the frost plug is replaced with a pressed in nipple. A 3/4 inch 90 degree molded hose then connects it to a second water inlet to the turbo pump. This provides another return flow path back to the water pump in addition to the one through the intake manifold water passage and cools the head better.

Don't start thinking about putting in the turbo pump to solve your car's problem. It won't help. If everything else was fine, the turbo pump would provide a little extra cooling for a safety margin on hot days. Your car's problem isn't just a safety margin. It's not working. Once you get to the root of the problem and fix it, upgrading to a turbo water pump would be a nice optional extra.

Mark, first put a NEW thermostat in the engine.

Then have a garage pressure test the engine to determine if:

1) The head gasket is blown

2) The head is warped

3) The head is cracked.

Make any repairs indicated.

Then pull the radiator out and take it to a shop. Flushing cleans out the loose bits. However, the radiator could still be seriously plugged by hard scale. It could appear to flow coolant, but still have it's ability to transfer heat severely reduced. Have the tanks removed and the core inspected. If partially plugged, either have it rodded out or re-cored. Once you are in that deep, re-coring with a thicker core would be the best option.

There is loads more info in the Files section of the group.

Regards

Mat Kutub

1979 S2


Regards

Mat

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Again, I'm impressed with the knowledge and experience. My hoses were fairly gunked up, but thought I had them fairly well clean. That and I hoped that 5 or 6 flushes later I'd be pretty free flowing.

I thought about using one of those Prestone cleaner solutions but wasn't sure if it'd be recommended on a car of this age. I'll try these suggestions and see where I end up.

Unfortunately due to work and a snowstorm from hell here (irony intended), I doubt I'll be doing much on it for the next week or two. But I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again for the contributions and compliments on the cars. As I'm sure most of you understand, it's comforting when others share the same inexplicable passion for these rare cars.


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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Two items to consider: First, my 85 turbo started to overheat prior to a rebuild, due to head gasket failure. Not a dramatic failure, in fact, I drove it that way for about two years. All that was happening is a very small amount of combustion gases were entering the cooling system via the head gasket. Early on, I had overheating symptoms but had no clue until it became a bit worse over several months. The most important indicator was the need to open the bleeder on the radiator, to let out the gases that accumulated, more often. I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH, that if a head gasket fails in the same manner, the radiator is ALWAYS going to accumulate those gases and render it useless!!! The end result of this accum. is that the coolant will be expelled from the header tank as it has no where to go.

Now, the reason I was able to drive the car for such a long period in this failed mode. I installed a banjo fitting w/ a small nipple onto the radiator bleed screw hole, then ran 1/8th rubber tubing all the way back to the header tank and 'T'd it into the small hose that is between the aluminum coolant downpipe and the tank.This allowed all gases entering the radiator to bleed off to the header tank, as any proper system should self bleed. I was surprised by the sucess of this mod. and was even able to run the 4) 20 min. sessions during the Lotus track day @ Watkins Glen in 2001.

The second item to consider, is the fact that proper beeding, whether auto or manual, of any cooling system is essential. I believe I read previously, that you found no circulation in your header tank and that you experienced loss of coolant out of the tank, exceeding the 10 psi rad cap pressure. ONCE AGAIN BLEEDING IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE! Be sure to check that the small aluminum pipe on the large aluminum coolant downpipe; the small pipe on the header tank; and the interconnecting hose are free of obstruction. This is the only way for any air, gases, etc. to be eliminated!! If you do find a blockage, rectify it, and BE ABSOLUTELY SURE to bleed the radiator before getting excited. How many times do we forget other details in our haste, which cause us to pull our hair out??!! like forgetting to put the rotor in the distributor!!!

Lastly, you should note; the coolant flow is from the large aluminum downpipe through the small hose to the header tank, then DOWN through the tank to the 5/8 in hose, and ultimately down to the suction (inlet) side of the pump. I am acutely aware of this due to the radical mods to my cooling system, but that's another story. Anyway, I hope I didn't waste your time reading this rather lengthy piece or mislead you in any way. I wish you the best of luck.

Lee

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Nope, you're not wasting my time at all!

My question however is how to bleed the radiator as you mention? I've routinely bled the air using the small hose from the header tank to the large downpipe, but I don't know how to bleed the radiator itself. I figured it's gotta have some air trapped in there somewhere...


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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On the left (drivers side) of the rad there is a plastic bleed screw in the shape of a wingnut that you would unscrew. You access it by removing the abs plastic cover in back of, and to the right of, the dr. side headlamp motor. Not sure why yours wouldn't have it. Perhaps someone could enlighten us about which rads came w/ one and which ones didn't. And how you are expected to get air out if not.

Were you able to verify the the small tubes and hose were indeed open?

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:( Lee, I think what you are referring to is one of the many things the S3/Turbo have that the S1 doesn't! (but should!)

Both of my S1s are on the earlier side (7702 and 7704), and neither have what you describe (nor does the shop manual give any hint of it).

S1 coolant fill procedure is pretty much what has been talked about - fill to top of header tank, make sure heater valve is open, put cap on, run car, top off, run car, top off, pull hose from aluminum pipe to header tank while running to let air out, and so on.

I don't know if there is any substance to this, but when I fill/bleed the cooling system, if the car can't be level, I have it angled so the nose is downhill/tail uphill; that hose coming off the aluminum elbow is the highest point in the cooling system. Again, not sure if this really affects anything. :(

But I have never had any difficulty bleeding the system at all. I rarely have even needed to pull the little hose; usually it is just fill-and-go.

Hegg, I cast my vote for blockage. :(

Edited by Tony K

Tony K. :)

 

Esprit S1s #355H & 454H

Esprit S2.2  #324J

1991 Esprit SE

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:( Lee,  I think what you are referring to is one of the many things the S3/Turbo have that the S1 doesn't!    (but should!)

Both of my S1s are on the earlier side (7702 and 7704), and neither have what you describe (nor does the shop manual give any hint of it).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My S2 has no radiator bleed valve either. The top hose comes of the radiator at the top of the end tank so shold take most of the air with it, particularly if the car is sat nose-down as you say, Tony.


S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

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I just jack up the back of my car, fill the system, turn the heater on and run it up till the stat opens(with the cap off)

It makes a bit of a mess when the coolant starts to expand , but it vacates all the air from the system.

Works for me(on alot of rear engined cars) :(


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I appreciate the responses once again and will take them to light. I'll be out of town for a bit, but should be back on the issue next week sometime. We'll get 'er fixed and back on the road!


2011 Lotus Evora 2+2

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