Turbo performance

[Artie]

Any one with a Turbo(nonchargecooled) looked into this in lieu of a chargecooler? I am quite intrigued and talked with the owner(emailed him anyway) who informs me that this system would "chemically" intercool nicely up to about 16psi. The system comes with boost switch and variable controller unit. Is anyone using one of these or water injection? Check it out at www.snowperformance.net, click on products and select boost cooler, let me know your thoughts.

Art

Edited February 14, 2006 by Artie

[Vulcan Grey]

From your post it wasn't clear if you understood how this works. So I hope you don't take offense if my reply is too basic...

Intercooling increases the density of the incmming "charge" by reducing the temperature. This has the effect of increasing the oxygen content. This alone can increase the power produced.

Water methanol injection does not increase power on its own, you would have to increase boost to increase power. The water methanol injection will only cool the charge and make it less likely to pre-ignite at higher boost levels (like a higher octane).

But in other words, yes it can help you safely make more horsepower, as long as you have other mods to add more horsepower.

[Artie]

From your post it wasn't clear if you understood how this works. So I hope you don't take offense if my reply is too basic...

Intercooling increases the density of the incmming "charge" by reducing the temperature.  This has the effect of increasing the oxygen content.  This alone can increase the power produced.

Water methanol injection does not increase power on its own, you would have to increase boost to increase power.  The water methanol injection will only cool the charge and make it less likely to pre-ignite at higher boost levels (like a higher octane).

But in other words, yes it can help you safely make more horsepower, as long as you have other mods to add more horsepower.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Grey,

No sweat, I am very aware of the thermodynamics involved, and I appreciate the response, I use your site almost every day to look up tech stuff I am not familiar with. I was looking specifically at this product because the latent heat of evaporation of methanol and water mix is far better than water alone(plus it's burn rate is lower while increasing octane considerably).

I was looking to see if anyone had practical knowledge of setting it up on our cars since I don't like blowing things up by trial and error. I am still sourcing a chargecooler, but am running into issues locating a suitable cooler unit.

As for performance mods, I have added the green cam gears, stainless downpipe and exhaust. I also did the ram air mod, and a BOV so far. I will be ordering the #15 chip from Marcus at PUK in a couple weeks after I install my new shocks.

Art

[Vulcan Grey]

Grey,

No sweat, I am very aware of the thermodynamics involved, and I appreciate the response, I use your site almost every day to look up tech stuff I am not familiar with.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Vulcan Grey

[th4neuk]

Superdave had an aquamist system fitted to his 90 Turbo back in his early days of esprit ownership. Also Glyn Harper (see LEW owners pages) has this fitted to his turbo car.

Cheers

[Artie]

Superdave had an aquamist system fitted to his 90 Turbo back in his early days of esprit ownership. Also Glyn Harper (see LEW owners pages) has this fitted to his turbo car.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the leads guys, I like your idea of relocating the MAT sensor Grey, but I was thinking of putting the nozzles directly across from the butterflies in the plenum spaced directly between both sets of TB's so all cylinders are gauranteed to get the same amount of spray. I would much rather put a chargecooler on the car but this seems most cost effective right now and I would definitely use an activation switch, which aquamist makes that is boost dependent.

Art

[Paula&Marcus]

Thanks for the leads guys, I like your idea of relocating the MAT sensor Grey, but I was thinking of putting the nozzles directly across from the butterflies in the plenum spaced directly between both sets of TB's so all cylinders are gauranteed to get the same amount of spray.  I would much rather put a chargecooler on the car but this seems most cost effective right now and I would definitely use an activation switch, which aquamist makes that is boost dependent.

Art

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Art,

If you plan to install a water/(methanol) injection systen, please place the water-injector as far away from the throttle butterflies as you can !

A good location is just after the turbo outlet where the hot air is coming out ! This enables the water/(methanol) mixture and the incoming hot air to get mixed thorougly before everything enters the combustion chambers ...

Just a word about the MAT-sensor and its location in non-c/cooled Esprits. You know its sitting in the air-box (BTW, the c/cooled Esprits have it sitting right after the cooler)

In the air-box the MAT-sensor is just sensing the ambient air temp. The ECU is doing a calculation with the help of MAP-readings to get the actual IAT-temp !

This means if you relocate the MAT-sensor on a NON c/cooled Esprit you will confuse this math and the ECU constantly thinks that its damn hot outside !!! This will definitely lower your performance !

But now the problem begins ! How to tell a non C/cooled Esprit that you have installed a charge cooling device (= c/cooler or water-injection) ?????

The only proper solution for this is to relocate the MAT-sensor AFTER the c/cooler OR water-injector AND convert the ECU and software (=chip) to a c/cooled version.

Sorry guys ...

Marcus

www.PUKesprit.de

[Artie]

Art,

If you plan to install a water/(methanol) injection systen, please place the water-injector as far away from the throttle butterflies as you can !

A good location is just after the turbo outlet where the hot air is coming out ! This enables the water/(methanol) mixture and the incoming hot air to get mixed thorougly before everything enters the combustion chambers ...

Just a word about the MAT-sensor and its location in non-c/cooled Esprits. You know its sitting in the air-box (BTW, the c/cooled Esprits have it sitting right after the cooler)

In the air-box the MAT-sensor is just sensing the ambient air temp. The ECU is doing a calculation with the help of MAP-readings to get the actual IAT-temp !

This means if you relocate the MAT-sensor on a NON c/cooled Esprit you will confuse this math and the ECU constantly thinks that its damn hot outside !!! This will  definitely lower your performance !

But now the problem begins ! How to tell a non C/cooled Esprit that you have installed a charge cooling device (= c/cooler or water-injection) ?????

The only proper solution for this is to relocate the MAT-sensor AFTER the c/cooler OR water-injector AND convert the ECU and software (=chip) to a c/cooled version.

Sorry guys ...

Marcus

www.PUKesprit.de

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Marcus,

Wow, thanks for the tip! I do intend to add a chargecooler when I can source one, I may break down and buy a larger aftermarket unit and plumb the heat exchanger later, so I figured converting over to the c/cooled ecu/injector setup was needed. But, will I still benefit short term by adding the water/alc injection system with say a #15 chip and boost controller? Could I put a chargecooled chip into my earlier non/c/cooled ecu, I'm not thinking so but figured I would ask the expert while I was at it. I was hoping to push the boost up to a modest peak .95bar with the water/alc injection and the chip, is this feasible or foolish? I certainly don't want to blow the motor up in the meantime! Thanks for your insight.

Art

[mwmackenzie]

Hi I am in the process of adding both to my 88 turbo.. I am using aquamist and have the jet just after the turbo and before the chargecooler and set to come on at a certain boost level.. I have scrapped my air con in favour of using the radiator for my chargecooer.. I have also changed to fuel injection and use a DTA ECU to run it all.. I can't really comment on how it all works as my car is not completed yet but will hopefully be in time for donnington next month!! Fingers crossed!!!

Mark B)

[Artie]

Hi I am in the process of adding both to my 88 turbo.. I am using aquamist and have the jet just after the turbo and before the chargecooler and set to come on at a certain boost level.. I have scrapped my air con in favour of using the radiator for my chargecooer.. I have also changed to fuel injection and use a DTA ECU to run it all.. I can't really comment on how it all works as my car is not completed yet but will hopefully be in time for donnington next month!! Fingers crossed!!!

Mark B)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mark,

that sounds like what I will end up with, but I fully intend to keep the A/C, it gets too hot here in MO, USA to do with out A/C. I plan on running a Cooling Mist water/methanol system also. Did you go with a larger c/cooler unit than stock or did you source a stock sized unit? I'm tempted to get a larger unit since they are more readily available. I do have a local guy who wants a larger c/cooler but he is very bad about sourcing new uprated products, so I was going to wait for him to upgrade his and I would buy his old unit. I'm very interested in following your progress as this is what I would like to do too. Also, I'm not familiar with DTA, is this a stand alone unit? I do want to upgrade the ECU to the later Delco unit capable of the 2 additional injectors. Thanks for your contribution!

Art

[mwmackenzie]

Hi, DTA is a stand alone ECU. I got my chargecooler from south west lotus in the uk, it is standard size and costs about

[Artie]

Hi, DTA is a stand alone ECU. I got my chargecooler from south west lotus in the uk, it is standard size and costs about

[mwmackenzie]

Hi, Chargecooler was brand new!! Got it at the donington show about 4 years ago from south west Lotus.. they normally run special prices at the shows I believe?? worth calling them.. +441566 784 152.

Mark

[Artie]

Hi, Chargecooler was brand new!! Got it at the donington show about 4 years ago from south west Lotus.. they normally run special prices at the shows I believe?? worth calling them.. +441566 784 152.

Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the number, their email doesn't seem to be current,

Cheers,

ARt

[Guest glyn.harper]

Hi chaps..

don't often get time to look at the forums, but it's only fair to post when I can..

I fitted water injection to my Esprit, as well as a chargecooler system so I'm more than happy to offer any advice I can one one or the other.

I must admit, I recently took the water injection system off as I never managed to get a decent tank for it, and I hardly used it. I have adjustable boost, and I don't often have it on 'High' boost. And the times I do, it's only for the odd quick burst and for those short bursts the chargecooler is more than capable of dealing with 1.1 bar of boost for the few seconds it's on. I guess if I were to do track days (which I don't) then I'd fit the water injection back on. I was just sick of having a tuppaware tub cable tied into the back of the car!

If you have AC on your car, you should still be able to fit a chargecooler rad. SE's had a dual radiator. One is the chargecooler rad, the other the Air con rad. The sport 300's actually plumbed these together to have double cooling. I just use the air con rad on mine as I live in the UK.

Adding a chargecooler isn't really that tricky. I just ran some alloy tube alongside the chassis underneath, then fitted some rubber pipe to a suitably located electric water pump. don't bother with the SE mechanical one.

Adding a bit of 'water wetter' helps in the chargecooler water system as well. just keeps the whole thing a little cooler.

If you do go for water injection, then the other guys have given some top tips.

Just bear these things in mind.

1. Water injection needs to be injected as soon as possible to have time to work before it hits the chambers.

2. MAF sensors probably don't like getting wet. They work using some special metals that are sensetive to heat and airflow. Getting soaked with a water spray travelling at goodness knows how many miles per hour (probably hundreds) won't do them any good.

3. Water injection isn't nitrous. Spraying it directly into the ports is a really bad idea.

4. DO NOT use methylated spirits. The purple dye reacts with the pumps and breaks them.

If you can't get methanol, use screenwash. I used to use a 50/50 mix of water and screenwash, as that's methanol based and works just as good. Keeps everything clean as well.

One last thing to note.. Water injection strips off any oil in the inside of your throttle bodies. I noticed my throttle bodies (carb ones first, then injection ones when I later changed) used to get a bit sticky, as the normal flow of oil mist in the inlet flow that oils the butterfly mechanisms was not able to build up a protective oily deposit as the water injection just cleaned it off. Especially as I have an an oil catch tank as well.

whatever system you fit, always be on the lookout for pinking in case the system either runs out of water, or the system blocks up or something.

Mine stopped working for ages before I noticed, as I'd mixed methylated spirits with water, and injected that. the purple dye in the meths had reacted with the plastic inside the ERL Aquamist pump and caused it to swell up and jam.

Any more help I can offer, let me know but I think the other guys have said everything already really.

[Artie]

Hi chaps..

don't often get time to look at the forums, but it's only fair to post when I can..

I fitted water injection to my Esprit, as well as a chargecooler system so I'm more than happy to offer any advice I can one one or the other.

I must admit, I recently took the water injection system off as I never managed to get a decent tank for it, and I hardly used it. I have adjustable boost, and I don't often have it on 'High' boost. And the times I do, it's only for the odd quick burst and for those short bursts the chargecooler is more than capable of dealing with 1.1 bar of boost for the few seconds it's on. I guess if I were to do track days (which I don't) then I'd fit the water injection back on. I was just sick of having a tuppaware tub cable tied into the back of the car!

If you have AC on your car, you should still be able to fit a chargecooler rad. SE's had a dual radiator. One is the chargecooler rad, the other the Air con rad. The sport 300's actually plumbed these together to have double cooling. I just use the air con rad on mine as I live in the UK.

Adding a chargecooler isn't really that tricky. I just ran some alloy tube alongside the chassis underneath, then fitted some rubber pipe to a suitably located electric water pump. don't bother with the SE mechanical one.

Adding a bit of 'water wetter' helps in the chargecooler water system as well. just keeps the whole thing a little cooler.

If you do go for water injection, then the other guys have given some top tips.

Just bear these things in mind.

1. Water injection needs to be injected as soon as possible to have time to work before it hits the chambers.

2. MAF sensors probably don't like getting wet. They work using some special metals that are sensetive to heat and airflow. Getting soaked with a water spray travelling at goodness knows how many miles per hour (probably hundreds) won't do them any good.

3. Water injection isn't nitrous. Spraying it directly into the ports is a really bad idea.

4. DO NOT use methylated spirits. The purple dye reacts with the pumps and breaks them.

If you can't get methanol, use screenwash. I used to use a 50/50 mix of water and screenwash, as that's methanol based and works just as good. Keeps everything clean as well.

One last thing to note.. Water injection strips off any oil in the inside of your throttle bodies. I noticed my throttle bodies (carb ones first, then injection ones when I later changed) used to get a bit sticky, as the normal flow of oil mist in the inlet flow that oils the butterfly mechanisms was not able to build up a protective oily deposit as the water injection just cleaned it off. Especially as I have an an oil catch tank as well.

whatever system you fit, always be on the lookout for pinking in case the system either runs out of water, or the system blocks up or something.

Mine stopped working for ages before I noticed, as I'd mixed methylated spirits with water, and injected that. the purple dye in the meths had reacted with the plastic inside the ERL Aquamist pump and caused it to swell up and jam.

Any more help I can offer, let me know but I think the other guys have said everything already really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Glyn,

Thanks alot for the tips, I appreciate you chiming in. I do plan, as stated above to add a chargecooler as well, but I want to add a water/methanol injection system for additional safety. The system I'll be using has an activation telltale so I'll know if the pump fails, or if the fluid runs out also, I discovered through discussions with Marcus at PUK that I'll want the injectors right after the turbo as to cool the charge directly out of the turbo. As for the heat exchanger for the chargecooler, I have an a/c condenser from my RX7 that I took out years ago and I'll use it for the chargecooler. Also, good tip on the water wetter, I may use a different(similar) product by a company called Pro-Blend, it's a little pricier but when used in my RX7, which is a summer(read high heat)track car and my engine temps at 14psi stay below 230degrees(F). Watter wetter never got close to cooling that well.