Elise to Esprit.... anybody done it?

[jerrytlr]

Hi all - I currently have an Elise S but am moderately tempted by an Esprit V8. Looking to take the Esprit for a proper test drive next week but wondering if anybody has made a similar move, and (1) regretted it or (2) thought it was the best thing they ever did, and if so, why? :-)

Also - I hope to do a fair few miles in the car (will not be a weekend toy). Just wondering what sort of mpg I can expect... so I can factor that in to my deliberations! I know servicing will be much higher (I'm assuming approx. £1K/year for the basic stuff)

Cheers,

Jerry

[Paul C]

I've done it the other way round and think it the best thing i ever did.

Go for it mate. I'd allow more than £1k to save tears (especially if you won't be doing the work yourself), i spent about £23,000 on servicing over a ten year period and although that included an engine bill i allowed £2k a year and only had a couple out of thirty or so of bills less than four figures.

The Elise thankfully put an end to ten years of that kind of running cost and this year i'm servicing the Elise and having a week in new york for less than some of my Esprit services cost. BUT when you consider what the Esprit will give you in terms of performance then the yearly cost (if you can afford it) is not a lot at all really. The car itself will pretty much hold it's value now, so you would actually lose more money a year buying something really exotic like, say, a new passat????

[Mark Blanchard]

I'd prefer to have my Esprit than a week in New York .

[Paul C]

I'd prefer to have my Esprit than a week in New York .

I really would not, thats when you know it's time to get out!

[Mark Blanchard]

You'd have to pay me to go to New York again.

And I'll sell my Esprit when the ambulance comes to take me away.

[esprit350]

I think the £1K a year is too low a figure and would say more like double that for a 4 pot esprit and more for the V8,

as for the week in new york it does not tempt me. but somewhere else would...I have yet to see much of the world, check out where I have been on the link below...

[Advantage]

I don't think I've ever spent that much maintaining an Esprit. Upgrades/mods (crash repairs!) yes, but servicing? No.

Cost aside, the Esprit isn't for everyone. Some have trouble getting comfortable behind the wheel, then get all claustrophobic when driving, complaining of poor 3/4 visibilty and concerns about the width or lack of footwell room to operate the pedals. These issues fade with familiarity but can blunt the initial experience enough to put you off buying.

The V8s are fast though. Supercar fast and are quicker in gear than the on paper times suggest. They aren't nearly as direct as an Elise is, but can hold their own when pressing on. They are certainly an infinte amount of times more civilised inside and are much more of an event to pootle up the road in.

Your test drive next week will highlight these details and hopefully you'll get on with it. (MPG, expect high teens - low twenties, maybe more on a long run and single figures on track)

[jerrytlr]

Really helpful input everybody, many thanks - and keep it coming! I think it is the directness of the Elise that I will miss most and is the main thing that is holding me back from making the switch - am really curious to know just how far behind it is... it is still a Lotus, after all, so I am expecting it to hold its own pretty well in the twisty bits!!

Even at £2K/year running costs, when depreciation is taken into account I think it will be similar overall to the Elise...

Would also appreciate real world observations re. reliability. Can these cars (looking at 2000 onwards by the way) be reliable enough to be a daily driver, assuming servicing is all done properly?

Cheers

Jerry

[Backmarker]

I'm with the other Graham on this. I've never spent anything like £2000 servicing my 2000 V8 Esprit.

Each year servicing has cost me about £400 at a Lotus dealership and that includes the MoT test.

In the first year a crank sensor failed leaving me stuck on a pub car park ( could think of worse places to get stuck I suppose )and cost me £16.49 to replace.

This year a fuel tank sprung a leak and that cost about £500 to replace again at the Lotus dealership.

I don't think I've spent £2000 in the entire 3 years I've owned the car including servicing and repairs.

Mines a weekend toy only. I know others use their Esprit's as their daily drive and have no issues. Reliability wise I don't think you'll have a problem as long as its been well maintained. These cars do like to be used.

Remember that physically they are much bigger than the Elise so tight parking spaces can sometimes be a problem

[esprit350]

but what about cam belt change every 24000 miles or x years whichever come sooner, its not a cheap job and would come under servicing...?

[Günter]

Jerry...

..most guys & girls out there change from Esprit to Elise as it's the more 'modern' production car... . What means if you are not able to service your Esprit in DIY you will need an car that is still in production -with all the related factory servicing-education courses for the dealer mechanics personal , and parts available all the time. The Esprit is in opposite to that more for collectors and private mechanics/'spanner-man' persons.... .

From the consumption point of 'engine-engineering' it is important to hold the engine under load in the rpm-range of highest torque. What means on the V8 around 4000-4250 rpm. If you run that in 5th gear it means (with factory gearing) around 170-180km/h. The most important force that works against an good *mpg* target in this speed range is the speed itself, of course -as the force of air is an massive point on every calculation like this. You can of course use the 400Nm on the 4000-4250 rpm point in an lower gear, as this would mean less ground speed -but it also means more time per covered distance ...so its your decission...

With factory wheel size, factory gearing and one person in the car on 4000-4250rpm and 170km/h in 5th gear -it means you can have an 10L/100km calculation on your refilling receipt -that was confirmed several times personally !

as a sidenote: it helps if the car is 'in use' more on daily base, as all things ages mostly by 'resting in the field'.. !

[Paul C]

but what about cam belt change every 24000 miles or x years whichever come sooner, its not a cheap job and would come under servicing...?

Both my Esprits were 20 years old to be fair. Most of the guys that talk of lower running costs are in Esprits half that age, in another ten years and 30-40k miles their cars will see the same money thrown at them i'm sure, but i agree that today a late esprit (obviously!) won't need something 20 years old replacing at every service.

[TrapperJohn]

My 90 SE hasn't been near that to keep going. It's been on the road for about six years, was parked for four years, and I've spent maybe 4k (USD) total.

However, that's with me doing most of the work, and having ready access to cheap GM parts. Cam belt change was involved, but I did get it done. Ended up taking four weekends, though I did a lot of other things and it had been sitting for a few years so there was some hibernation decay to address.

If you have an interest in how your vehicle works, and don't mind some online research and greasy hands, maintenance isn't that bad. Actually, my Mercury (Ford) Sable estate is harder to service in a lot of respects, especially anything to do with the engine.

However, if you have to visit a mechanic for even the smallest problem, this is probably not something you want. Someone at my office recently sold his 90 SE, for maintenance cost reasons. He had spent USD12k in three years, because he didn't know how to maintain it, had it towed 50 miles to a mechanic every time something went wrong. They're also sensitive to driving style. Mine still has the original clutch, but I'm careful not to stress it. I understand the V8's will eat a clutch quickly if you abuse it. The Esprit rewards an intelligent driver, and punishes a clumsy one.

Esprits are high strung vehicles, and do develop minor issues from time to time. Right now, mine has developed a miss in the engine at around 6k, but it only does that occasionally. More often than not, it has full power, but every so often, it loses some power at high RPM. Don't know what it is, maybe the Esprit is just in a bad mood.

As for Esprit vs Elise: I've only potted about in an Elise briefly. Delightful, lighter, simpler, definitely better at low speeds. However, it wasn't nearly as dramatic to drive, didn't have the explosive power of even a later 4 pot. With good R compound tyres, even my SE will rip through highway ramps at frightening speeds. I suppose it's all a matter of what you like.

[Paul C]

As for Esprit vs Elise...

His question was from Elise TO Esprit, not Elise V Esprit.

I find it very interesting that most threads where someone moves between the two models end up an Esprit V Elise debate and sometimes a heated one at that. It happened when i said i was selling my Esprit, i forget who but some grade A genuis said from nowhere 'The elise is not a better car' (i never said it was!) and started a waterfall of nonesense until i had to step in and ask why this inane debate had been wheeled out again (like some addled grandmother at christmas). Comparing a Lotus esprit to a Lotus Elise is EXACTLY as sensible as comparing a willy to a pair of tits. And without fail the argument always crops up when the question has never actually been asked, it's almost like it's always on the simmer for some guys. And anyone moving from one model to the other has to run the gauntlet!

Of all the cars i have ever owned or driven, the Elise is the least like an Esprit, it's like comparing a hairdryer to the Vulcan bomber. I'd compare my old Supra to the Esprit more, heavier, bigger and with more power.

[Simon350S]

I don't think an Elise is as good as an Esprit because it's small, small things are mostly worse than big things.

One argument solved!

Simples

[Jonathan]

My last 4 cars, Esprit, Elise, Esprit, Esprit

The Esprit is an intensly personal ownership experieience and can be quite unique, from owner to owner, vehicle to vehicle and even model to model.

No Esprit is the same, my 3 had totally different characteristics so no-one on here can cast your car and your experiences into a mould let alone predict your future expenses on the car.

Most importantly you need to work out whether the V8 is the car for you from an Elise, they are sooooo different and only you can judge that.

Service costs will depend on the car, your car, not the model or the year but generally how the car has been looked after in the past.

Dont factor £xxx a year either, some years it'll be peanuts, the next you might hit a few £1,000.

Tyres are an example - a good set (which is the only set you should put on a V8) are ~£250ea rear and £~170ea front which combined with a service will eat your £1000 up in 1 swoop

If you like the car, buy it, enjoy it and then if it becomes too much sell it.

The 1st step (you've already done) is to join the forum and ask questions, this will drastically reduce the running cost (people have saved £1000s on here) - if you take it to the local lotus dealer every time it sneezes and throw money at it expect to be a poor man very soon - a lot of buying a new car is just a step of faith - get the car inspected, do your research and if you like it, buy it.

I regret selling my Elise, mainly becuase it complimented the Esprit so much, they are two very different sides of the coin. I now have 2 Esprits, when I really should have stuck with the Elise/Esprit combo - however I did find I was using the Elise a lot more - it's so much more of a turn key car for your 1st 100 miles - any more than that the Esprit takes over.

The Esprit is also a very good weekend car, we often take it away for long weekends and it easily gets in our clothes / kit / shopping etc - it is an extremely versatile car.

[Gipsy]

I'm agree with Jonathan,

Esprit and Elise are so different... so the best way is to have the two ! And switch when you want.

Esprit for couple of days of holliday's

Elise for track or mountain road time attack during one day or two.

One car is pure sport's car (Elise)

the other car is more Grand Turismo (Esprit, more if it's the V8)

Gipsy, happy with his Elise and Esprit V8

[jerrytlr]

Thanks all. Test drive tomorrow.... I'll let you know how I get on.

Am rather enjoying chucking the Elise round the lanes at the moment so suspect I will stick with that... you have all given me the idea that the Esprit is more of a (fast) GT than a sports car....

Cheers,

Jerry

[Jonathan]

No the Esprit is without a doubt a supercar, where the Elise is a sports car - a Fast GT is a Ferrari 550, the Esprit has the engine in the middle for good reason !

The plus side is that it has an unusually large luggage capacity esp if you remove the spare wheel. In normal hands it's not as quick as a top end Elise in the twisties - lower end elise, about the same, power makes up for it. Its harder to drive fast compared to the Elise which is a doddle to get the best from - in good hands however the Esprit is no slouch at all, even in the corners !

[jerrytlr]

Just got back from test drive. Here is how I got on...

First things first - the engine. Usually I am no big fan of V8s - mainly because of their unwillingless to rev smoothly and ponderous feel (anybody driven a ZT260, or even a V8 AMG Merc? You know what I mean). But this Lotus V8 is an absolute cracker. Smooth and willing right up to the limiter. And forget all the comments about it sounding boring - I thought it sounded fantastic.

Handling was pretty much as I expected, but as (bad) luck would have it there was slight rain during the test drive so the roads were damp and unfamiliar, and the tyres on the car brand new - so I didn't push it. I have a feeling that Jonathan has it absolutely sussed in his reply above. My Elise, with me driving, would have left the Esprit, with me driving, for dead and been more fun too. The Esprit is much more of a handful to drive. The gap would no doubt close considerably as my familiarity with the Esprit improved, but no way is it ever going to threaten even my lowly Elise S on the twisty bits when piloted by somebody of my rather limited driving talents.

That's not to say the handling was bad of course - Elise is about as good as it gets IMO so not really a fair benchmark. I doubt there are many 1,300Kg cars that would be better than the Esprit. I was a little surprised by one thing however, which is the degree of roll on initial turn in. I wonder if newer/better shocks would make a difference here??

Another negative was the lack of interior space - somehow the much larger car seems to have less interior space (head and leg room) than its baby sister! It is right on the limit for me, and I am only just over 6 foot tall. I noticed it much more as a passenger - verging on claustrophobic in fact. When I was driving the car it didn't seem to be as much of an issue. Other than that I thought the interior was a very nice place to be. When it comes to luggage space, again I'm not sure the Esprit is a lot better than the Elise - for the simple reason that you need to leave (a lot of) space for the roof in the boot of the Esprit, whereas the Elise roof will stow nicely behind the seats...

Finally - that gearbox. Read so much about how awful it is... on this particular car, first was almost impossible to engage, and going down the box from 3rd to 2nd required, lets say, a 'positive movement' on the part of the driver! But it is not all bad - swapping between 3rd and 4th felt great with a short, precise action. And the V8's linear delivery means that the majority of driving can easily (and rapidly) be done in those two gears.

So will I buy it? Maybe if the deal is right. I can see it would be fun to own for a couple of years. I can always get another Elise... whereas decent Esprits are becoming harder to find.

But the real eye opener for me, which I was pondering as I drove the Elise back from the dealership, is just how good the Elise has become. Yes it's put on a few Kg over the years, but it now has almost as much space as the Esprit, amazing levels of refinement, build quality the Esprit can only dream of, decent performance, and handling that is second to none. All from less than 900Kg, vs. 1,300Kg for the Esprit. It's a masterpiece of engineering!

Cheers,

Jerry

[Jonathan]

Initial roll is absolutly characteristic of the car.

People often shun it but forget about physics, the initial roll is to get the weight on the tyres - if it were not there the car would just slip sideways in a hard corner. It's typical of every Esprit I have driven, weight shift is totally necessary to achieve grip. I have brand new shocks on my light as hell GT3 and the body roll is still there - get it on a large motorway junction roundabout, turn in and let the car settle, then slowly feed the accelerator in and you'll be amazed how well it sticks.

That was the difference between the Elsie/Esprit for me. The Elise you could go in too hot and easily reduce the power/steering to suit the corner - the Esprit I find you have to go in cold and build upto it. A wobbly Esprit will punish you a LOT more than an Elise.

Inside it is smaller, but I find it easy to live with, you havent got the rear parcel shelf, but I tuck stuff in behind the seats without too much drama. The difference is the Esprit has it's chassis running between passengers, the Elise runs around them - the key being in the Esprit 2 people are nicely seperated (passenger side is nice pace to sit incase you're wondering) in the Elise you sit very close together and often end up rubbing shoulders etc - so there is some plus/minus to that - I prefer the Esprit to the Elise in that manner, esp for driving with a passenger.

Yeah - roof out takes 90% of the boot space, I've had the lid off my GT3.....once in 4 years ?

I usually just lift it up becuase I have no air-con - think of it as a hard top for the Elise, at least you can stow the Esprit roof ! If you're really up for it you can get glass ones as well.

The big plus with the Esprit boot is access - the Elise has a tiny hole to get everything in and some things you simply cannot fit in, the Esprit doesn't suffer this - and you have the front as well.

There is no doubt the Elise took things further for engineering, it's a new build as opposed to a car that has it's roots back in the mid 60's with the Elan/Europa chassis and way of thinking.

I wouldn't say buiild quality was much better - I've wrenched apart both cars and again they're too different to compare.

The two are totally different - the Esprit is definatly an event car, harder to work, more expensive to look after but blisteringly quick (forget 0-60, think more 30-140)

The issue is they are two very different experiences and cars in everyway.

I can always get another Elise... whereas decent Esprits are becoming harder to find.

Sums it up perfectly.

In retrospec if you see an Esprit being driven propperly you also tend to marvel at how an age old car can still spank the new boys. Images of Robs S300 spanking the porsches/mercs etc on the track spring to mind. Remember the Esprit was raced in the GT1 guise as well vs Mclaren F1's and the like and was largely rated.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Jonathan

[Russell Mills]

I went from Elise to Esprit (actually Elise 111s Mk1 to 340R and then to Esprit Sport 300 - still have both the 340R and the Sport 300).

Personally I wouldn't ever go back, yes I loved the Elise but felt it was definatley underpowered and is not as much as an experience as the Esprit. Owning both a Lotus 340R and a Sport 300 Esprit I could not go back to an Elise.

The Elise is very good, has great body control and handling (although you have to watch the liftoff oversteer at the limit). The Esprit has a much larger boot and storage space in he front which must be at least twice as big as the Elise and seriously if you need to use extra capacity boot just keep the roof in place (I've have had my car for 9 years and have never need to put the roof in the boot).

Handling wise, when traction is broken the Esprit (at least my version) is more forgiving than an Elise would be (or an Exige), and is very catchable so long as you are not silly with it. Also in my opinion the Esprit is a better handling car than the Elise (MK 1 or 2) and more progresive breakaway and has better stablity and is better at handling high speed corners than an Elise, (which due to the length of the wheelbase can feel less settled). The Elise is a great piece of engineering but it is compromised with cost and production in mind whereas th Esprit was approached with making a supercar from the start and has been updated to contine that trend.

If you are looking at Esprit ownership you should also try not just the V8's but the 4 cylinder cars as well as they will probbaly feel a little bit more like your Elise, take a few for a drive and see how they compare. To be honest I really didn't get on with the V8's that I tried which included a SE, GT and a long weekend with a Sport 350 to me they felt more like a very fast GT car and were a little too slow responding in the handlling stakes (less agile) also felt a little bit heavy at the rear (compared with the Elise and the 340R), although they are great for using on a regualr basis and can shrink vast distances with thier pace and torquey engine.

I love both my 340R and the Esprit Sport 300 and have owned both for 10 and 9 years respectivley and they are both very similar in Character and ability on the road and on the track. Also in the right hands the Esprit will trounce most Elise/ Exiges as Dave Minter demonstrated in my Sport 300 at Brands one day (that and a race Ferrari 360). In addiiton if I ever had to sell one it would "probably" be the 340R as the Esprit is too good to let go.

Just my own peronal opinion Happy hunting for the right car

[Günter]

additional front luggage-compartement (by removing of toolbox/sparewheel), removal of seatrunner distanceplates, retrofitting of aftermarket seats, modification of steering-column mounts & retrofitting of different steering-wheels, different ARB versions ...that is a lot of points to make an Esprit more userfrindly or more 'defined' in driving I think

(as I say, with 1.90m and 110kg+)

Edited March 14, 2010 by Günter

[Russell Mills]

additional front luggage-compartement (by removing of toolbox/sparewheel), removal of seatrunner distanceplates, retrofitting of aftermarket seats, modification of steering-column mounts & retrofitting of different steering-wheels, different ARB versions ...that is a lot of points to make an Esprit more userfrindly or more 'defined' in driving I think

(as I say, with 1.90m and 110kg+)

Dude I don't know what your points is (serouisly I don't) but for capacity on my Sport 300, it has a great big space in the front bonnet. Tell you what stop talking metrics and take a photo (with say an article or known space, case umbrella??) and then back it up with reality and we will see what the hell (really you do need to spec out your thoughts to what you are trying to say??? bigger than an Elise or the ArK???) Fact is the Esprit has over 2+ time the luggage capacity to an Elise and I owned both and measured both, Plus the Esprit is far more useable.

[Simon350S]

I Love your garage, Russell

Please keep those cars and look after them with tender loving care until the day I have money to buy them from you, please also don't use them too much as I'd like them to still be low mileage

Thankyou in advance

p.s. don't be greedy on the price, you'll have what your given