free hit
counters
Poor Brake Systems - Suspension/Brakes/Wheels/Hubs/Steering/Geo - The Lotus Forums #ForTheOwners Jump to content


Poor Brake Systems


Recommended Posts

After having a chat with SuperDave tonight about a brake upgrade for my car I get the feeling that the biggest difference to my brake setup may end up coming from changing the brake servo at small cost rather than spending 1k+ on a brembo/big disc type setup all round. Im on the stock pre-brembo setup at present with Greenstuff pads. The car will stop but given the dead feel even with the ABS disabled it still provides little confidence given the speeds these cars are capable off.

So I have a couple of questions;

1- Are all you guys with pre-brembo setup cars happy with your brakes ?

2- Has anyone tried replacing the servo to try and get a better feel or at least upgrade it to the more moden v8 type ?

Edited by CarlC
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
  • Replies 24
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

We've enquired about changing the servo a while back. The cost would be huge apparently as stripping out the old stuff and refitting new stuff is quite a bit of work. You'd also have to deal with the ABS, but as you've disable that, it might not be an issue.

What servo from which car are you thinking about?

kato

lew_small.gif

http://www.lotusespritworld.com' target='_blank'>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was looking for an Esprit I test drove an 89 Turbo with SS braided brake lines, but stock disks and pads. The car I bought, an 89 SE, currently has completely stock brakes, but I am sure the car with SS lines felt much better on the brakes. I am planning on getting SS lines fitted when it is serviced soon as I think this may make a noticeable difference (along with the turbo groove disks and pads that I have had in garage for a year but havent found the time to fit).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SS lines won't swell as much as the rubber one - also how often do people replace their brake fluid ? Should be done every year as it naturally absorbs moisture which makes the braking feel spongy - noticed a HUGE difference on both my cars when I done that.

Definatly fit stainless lines + fluid change, go for uprated pads as well and see how it feels.

Depends how you drive the car tbh, whether you're a big braker or let it coast to corners.

Brakes are something I've been playing with for a bit - wouldn't mind upgrading them more just to see how well it can stop (not that I use them that much) - the AP system would be my next thinks - however remember the tyres, brakes have as much to do with road grip as they do the disks and pads.

facebook = [email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone ever eliminated the servo altogether on these later cars? I have an 85 N/A Turbo that I removed the servo from to eliminate weight, and the entire vac. pump system. Unfortunately, my master cyl. is leaking and requires repair or replacement, but no luck on parts yet. I may also want to reduce the bore diam. slightly to provide less pedal effort. Anyone have ideas? Thanks, Lee

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am Pre-Brembo, and yes, the stock brakes are quite weak.

but my condition is not driving fast often, so I will only have a minor upgrade on brake discs and green pad..(by PUK Esprit Racing)

but I did test-driven an 89 Esprit turbo with upgrades to AP-Racing Brake kit

the brakes reaction is very linear....and very balance.

I like it alot...

but because of HK Transportation department restriction..the owner of such Esprit must replace the brake (to original form) for the annual inspection permit...

so it's too much works for me....,anyway

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but because of HK Transportation department restriction..the owner of such Esprit must replace the brake (to original form) for the annual inspection permit...

so it's too much works for me....,anyway

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats crazy ! :blink:

and I thought rules here were silly.

facebook = [email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the comments guys,

I mentioned my thoughts on the brakes to PNM today as I was after some other bits. Apparently if I understood pete correctly, my problem is much more involved as Kato says. For the pre-bembo s4 its not just a case or replacing the servo, there other stuff to strip out and the need to have a machanical vacuum pump which would in effect be the same type setup as the 88/89 cars, replaced on the s4 by the power steering pump. So my thought of a cheap servo update appears to be dead for the time being :blink: . The big brake update with ss braided brake hose appears to be back on. Very interesting to hear your comments Jon on the fluid replacement with new pipes.

Any pre-Brembo s4 people out there who reacon their brakes feel good and stop well. If so what have you done to achive this ???

We've enquired about changing the servo a while back. The cost would be huge apparently as stripping out the old stuff and refitting new stuff is quite a bit of work. You'd also have to deal with the ABS, but as you've disable that, it might not be an issue.

What servo from which car are you thinking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not strip out and just replace the system with a twin master cylinder type setup with no servo atall. Surely this would be the easiest option??

You will also then be able to have in car adjustable front rear bias ideal for those track days and you can then match your master cylinders to whichever caliper setup you purchase??

Couple this with braided hoses and there you have it. Perfect braking and much less weight do cap it all off.

Job sorted! :blink:

Chunky Lover

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Track day!! :angry: - I dont even take my car out in the wet. Im a real soft arse :lol: !

However, this is exactly the sort of ideas I was after. At present Im pretty clueless on what exactly my options in regards of sorting out the brake feel problem.

Im just suprised that more people havent taken action to sort out the crap brake feel which makes me think that perhaps there is a solution im not thinking about.

Why not strip out and just replace the system with a twin master cylinder type setup with no servo atall. Surely this would be the easiest option??

You will also then be able to have in car adjustable front rear bias ideal for those track days and you can then match your master cylinders to whichever caliper setup you purchase??

Couple this with braided hoses and there you have it. Perfect braking and much less weight do cap it all off.

Job sorted!  :blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crappy one :blink: (Delco Moraine)

Where you have to pump the brakes like a mad man before checking the oil level :angry:

I'm leaning towards agreeing with Simon, the Elise has a single master cylinder and no ABS either and it's perfect and very progressive (plus the pedal movement is easier on heel and toe hehe).

Yeah ABS is good, I'm gonna be contreversial but I've only needed it once going down hill on sheet ice at 5mph and the pedal was going nuts...car ended up sliding anyways on the corner but I would have just reverted to cadence method which is now habit after driving the Elise for so long. If you're relying on ABS at speed you're in bad territory anyways.

I dunno - it's something I have promised myself to look into this year, not that I need it, simply becuase I have to take things apart.

There's lots of considerations to make when looking at brakes / change of driving style etc.

If I were going disk I'd go for larger diameters, more leverage. The EBC ones are fine but really work by allowing gas/dust to escape better and added cooling - their frictional surface is actually lower than a standard disk and you have to put the pedal in more to feel the effect - thats why I say pads 1st, the disks on my car are pretty mcuh cosmetic and I'm just trying them out for tinkering sake.

facebook = [email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Simon/Jon,

That sounds positive on the alternative brake setup.

Jon,

Have you treated yourself to a run out yet since you got your car back together?

Whats your view on the brake feel, given your ss/hose, new discs and fluid change?

Crappy one  :blink: (Delco Moraine)

Where you have to pump the brakes like a mad man before checking the oil level  :angry:

I'm leaning towards agreeing with Simon, the Elise has a single master cylinder and no ABS either and it's perfect and very progressive (plus the pedal movement is easier on heel and toe hehe)....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hard to tell - only ran it on the fronts with new pads and disks - no major difference tbh I was still running them in when I took the car off the road into the garage. For the few 100 miles I drove it it was good and noticably easier to bring to a stop using consistant pedal pressure.

Main relavance was the Elise which was just different.

The difference was in the foot pressure and travel. With lower friction area (due to groove and pits on the disks) the pedal has to be applied more, the downside to that is more pressure = friction = heat which the pads and disks are supposed to deal with. So more foot in for more pressure makes for swelling in the lines, hence the new lines overcame that again.

The main difference is fade, in that they don't, even when coming down from 100mph. Some old cars you can brake and find yourself going in more and more to compensate for the fluid getting less viscous under heat and the pads building up gasses etc - it doesn't happen on these so you have a pretty linear braking experience and a fair amount of control - ie travel per & of braking - takes a little getting used to becuase I drive servo assisted cars nigh on all the time but it does stop well, chap at Maidstone also rated it when he road tested it.

Fluid helps as well - very cheap fix, esp if you haven't done it for a few years (My Elise had the same fluid in for 4 years !) - muck and bullets in it :blink:

It would be more noticable when tracking or doing a lot of braking - my style doesn't lend to that anyways - I generally let off the accelerator and cruise to the cornering speed knowing I still have all my brakes if I need them.....not everyones idea of driving but I enjoy trying to judge the road correctly - on the motorway I try and not use the brakes at all unless some egit pulls out on me.

Thing is the EBCs are cheaper and zinc coated - my Elise sits for a week or so sometimes in the rain and they are 100% rust free. Maintenance friendly, cheap, just as good as originals, plus they look cool.

If you want to stop on the line bigger brakes and calipers are the way imo.

facebook = [email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Simon, looks like an exceptional system. Afterall, how many inline dual masters do you see on serious racecars? Thanks for the input. I need to change/ rebuild or replace the master in my '85 N/A Turbo; and thusfar have not found any sources here in the US for cyls or repair kits for that 'Bendix 23' cyl. I certainly would consider the dual, separate unit if mounting it were relatively easy. ie., w/o cutting or welding the original mount. Any ideas?? I have already mounted the orig. cyl w/ an adapter that I machined from aluminum to eliminate the booster and entire vac. sys. If someone knows where I might find the orig cyl. or a kit to get me driving I would appreciate the input. Then I could explore mounting options for the twin cyl. setup. Thanks again, Lee

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thusfar have not found any sources here in the US for cyls or repair kits for that 'Bendix 23' cyl.

Did you try Lotus for the repair kit? I got a rebuild kit from them a while back, includes literally everything except the casting and reservoir, and all the fiddly bits are preassembled. Of course, they may be out of them now, but it's worth checking. Part number A082J6082F. The actual master cylinder is no longer available, which caused me no end of grief, as I had to have mine resleeved.

Visit Sanj's Lotus Esprit Turbo SE pages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not strip out and just replace the system with a twin master cylinder type setup with no servo atall. Surely this would be the easiest option??

You will also then be able to have in car adjustable front rear bias ideal for those track days and you can then match your master cylinders to whichever caliper setup you purchase??

Couple this with braided hoses and there you have it. Perfect braking and much less weight do cap it all off.

Job sorted!  :mellow:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just finishing a twin master cylinder bias adjustable pedal box for my v8, it is possible to adapt an original pedal box but theres a fair bit of work to it. Suprised Pete (PNM) didn't mention it to you cos he wants one when its done!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carl, Jon's the expert of this so keep grilling him for info. Better still, get Jon to do the conversion for you, he lives local to you anyway. BTW, you've met each other at Oulton Park last October you just haven't realised it yet!

Carl, Jon should be on the PNM stand too so I'll introduce you again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave/Jon,

Thanks for info. Im hopeing to be at Donington on the Sunday, work commitments allowing. Hopefully Ill be able to catch you both then and you can give me the low down on how much of the wife's child allowance I need to 'borrow' to have nice responsive brakes. Thanks Kids. :blink:

Carl, Jon's the expert of this so keep grilling him for info. Better still, get Jon to do the conversion for you, he lives local to you anyway. BTW, you've met each other at Oulton Park last October you just haven't realised it yet!

Carl, Jon should be on the PNM stand too so I'll introduce you again!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited by CarlC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just had a talk with an old friend of mine who runs a porsche garage

after owning a few porsche's the braking will never be better

He asked me to come by with my car

he thinks he can fit some porsche 993 calippers (brembo)with large disks for a soft price. (2nd hand calippers are about

researche is something i do when i don't know what the hell i'm doing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cool Rens, it will be interesting to see how you get on with this.

I hope you get some major improvement in brake feel as well as braking ability.

I just had a talk with an old friend of mine who runs a porsche garage

after owning a few porsche's the braking will never be better

He asked me to come by with my car

he thinks he can fit some porsche 993 calippers (brembo)with large disks for a soft price. (2nd hand calippers are about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Be very interested to know as well.

Braking has a lot to do with suspension as well btw, I read somewhere about brake effectivness and slip (think this is the sheer angle between the hub, tyre and road) someone said the optimum is 11 degrees which is also strongly dictated by the front suspension stiffness.

In my way of thinking you'd need hard front suspension to stop the car in a straight line, however this changes the car's handling ability.

Obviously the best way to get around this is active suspension - the Esprit probably has an optimum braking effectivness in conjunction with the standard suspension in the effect that you can add more pots, bigger disks, tyres etc but in the end physics dictates how good it is.

It's all a big balancing act.

facebook = [email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...