free hit
counters
Ok, now I'm confused - Induction/Turbo/Chargecooler/Manifold/Exhaust - The Lotus Forums Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Okey kokey, Good Evening, Good Day

So, you may have followed my saga, and I am pleased to report that I got the actuator setup for 0.63BAR beautifully....

So, to do this I went through the long winded slow, but safe process of having the actuator wound right out and then coming in a little at a time running 3rd & 4th gear inbetween using freescan for the map values....

Now, to do this I unplugged the solenoid.

So, when all was well I plugged the solenoid back in

And, my expectations of a perfect running car were cruelly dashed. The MAP reading skyrocketed. 2.23. I didn't head past 5000rpm (there or thereabouts) for obvious reasons.

So, I can't get back on the car till tomorrow; This has got to be a leak right? On one (or more) of the solenoid pipes? Not bad enough to show at the lower settings, but enough to show up at the higher boost level?

I havn't checked the ECU but I am figuring the leak is more likely than someone having messed with the ECU/Chip?

Wastegate Duty Cycle during the 2.23 reading for MAP was only 75 (up and down 76/74) Although it suddenly spiked at 100.

Ahh, to hell with it, Il upload the file on this post anyway, head down to row 1400 ish, and the detail is from there onwards

gotta be a leak? Could the diameter of the pipe down to the actuator make a difference, its brand new but is 5mm, which I think is larger than standard.

ETA, car has no vaumn leaks, has Brand New actuator, new piping to MAP sensor, new IAC, Throttle Jack removed, EBPV removed, and when the solenoid is plugged back in, no faults listed. Oh, and a new throttle position sensor, was running Optimax (98ron) and the outside temp was 23degrees celcius

And a 2.5" straight through exhaust from the cat back, and the ram air mod

thats five turns.csv

Edited by fesuvious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.

OK, the important thing is do not trust Freescan's MAP reading. Your reading of 2.23 bar is actually closer to 2.05 bar from memory (I don't have the conversions to hand but it should be fairly close.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now THAT wasn't the reply I was expecting. Could I ask you to expand on that please?

You are saying not to trust the graph?

freemapboost.jpg

This throws everything Iv done right out the window if this is true. Which is ok, all I want is to get the car right.

Edited by fesuvious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd go with what Jon has given you mate.

He put a lot of time and research into this and proved the freescan values against BAR conversion using a calibrated pressure guage and created the graph you see. I'd take it as gospel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just read your post and can sypathise with your pains I was there 5 years ago.

Ok from reading your post I have a hunch your car may well be chipped.

Personaly i'd set the wastegate to factory setting as per click here.

I'm running chip number 5 and I do get a serious overboost. If you plumb in the wastegate to bypass the solenoid and all appears to be well then the issue is the signal to solenoid from the ecu. This will engage the solenoid to bleed air away sooner thus resulting in higher boost / over boost.

Forget freescan readings for the moment as you will with the chipped cars go in to a suturated reading state I believe Jonathan mentioned this in another topic concerning chipped cars (Jonathan feel free to join conversation:) ).

I guess you need to see if your cars chipped by seeing if the eprom is resoldered in.

Of course i could be wrong but i've just learnt to live with it having killed four turbos in five years.

I know now when to let off.

Waynef

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, yes, I must admit Jonathan seems to know what he is talking about! I see no reason not to trust the graph from the data I have accumulated this far.

SailorBob, if you could quantify, and justify that claim then please do.

Il check the ECU later today, although Il check the pipe work again too. 

If anyone has any technical comment, then please, get typing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm guessing were getting a little lost in translation Derek. Freescan is displaying in the log file exactly what it's reading, but what it is reading is not a pressure it's a value. This value cannot be mistaken for the actual BAR reading.

At 2.23 MAP value your boost is only a little over 1 BAR which doesn't sound too far out if what was said in your other topic is true in that an S4S runs at 1 BAR continuous.

It would be worth checking your chip, it's not uncommon for cars to be chipped and the current owners not being informed of such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahh, but what I am crapping myself over is that the MAP sensor won't read higher than 2.23, so effectively I have no clue what the max boost is!

The Lotus boost guage hammers over to the far right at 1BAR and is locked there. The Blitz boost guage registers 1.61 kv**** whatever it is which is supposed to equate to BAR. Now 1.6 BAR if correct puts me firmly into BANG territory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought it was saturated at 2.3 @ 1.1 BAR according to the graph.

2.23 puts it below this threshold. I may be wrong as I've not done this myself it's just from reading Jons posts before.

I've no knowledge or comment on the Blitz side of things sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jonathan has said that the MAP sensor won't read any higher than 2.23 (despite the line on the graph)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

K, Nuff said :D

I'll stand down now and pass the baton on to the better informed among us.

Think your heading towards Mattey teritory now though. It's been going on long enough.

Hope she's fixed soon one way or another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nahh, Il get this sorted. I love to be able to learn and understand my cars. If I throw it at Matty's they'll possibly fix it and hand it back - great, but Il have learnt nothing.

Although if it turns out to have a chip in it they'll be getting a call !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The graph was done becuase I wanted to see the relationship between real pressure and what freescan showed - so in effect I could take my freescan log and cross ref it to real pressure, thats when I came across the 2.23 freescan (1.1bar) upper limit. I confirmed this with John Welch of WC engineering but no other chip maker would reply to me or talk (on here or on private e-mail) about how the car reads above that 1.1 bar limit - the only conclusion i could draw from that is that it was all bullshit and a con - strong words but no-one was willing to support their product.

The other reason is most poeple go "ohhh errrr yeah, 2.35 on freescan is about 1.56 bar becuase tom/dick/harry said so" and thats bullshit too.

There was a myth going around that you take Freescan's reading and minus 1.0 to get the real baromic pressure reading and again that wasn't true and I wanted to nail it down once and for all.

As stated on the graph, those readings are direct readings from the MAP sensor when a known compressor was put on it.

The results are +/- 0.05 bar and should be used as a guide, but keep in mind the ECU struggles to regulate pressure at that accuracy anyways so all is well.

To add I spent about 3 hrs collating that info - using both up and down pressure methods (ie starting from zero and increasing the pressure, then releasing pressure to ensure there was no 'backlash' in sensors/compressor) the MAP sensor is extremely accurate. I also measured the voltage output from the MAP sensor using a DVM and compared that to freescan's results - they were identical.

If anyone thinks it's wrong PLEASE state why and I'll recheck my data as this exercise was to try and blow the guesswork away and get people into fact terrirory and not guesswork.

I'm also willing to take cash bets on the fact it's right though :D

-------------------------------------------------

On to the question...

I think the car's most probably been chipped - although I wouldn't be too harsh on Matty's becuase that is often overlooked as Simon says.

Thing is S4s'eseses are bloody quick anyways without a chip even compared to other Esprits so unless you drive 2 of them back to back it wont necessarily be apparent.

That said I bet you paid a hefty price for the car (esp from Matty's) you'd expect it to be totally tiptop.

You'll have to open the memcal as per instructions on LEW and check.

http://www.lotusespritworld.com/EGuides/EModifications/chip_install.html

I'm going to bite serious tounge for a change on the subject of chips, becuase for the majority I think they are a con - it just so happens that so many cars with engine trouble are also chipped.

If your car is chipped - it's a perfect example of WTF is going on becuase if you cannot read whats going on - sure as hell the ECU cannot. So even if boost pressure was not an issue how the hell does the ECU know what fuel / spark etc to dish out for a pressure it cannot read ? This could be significatly over/under fueling the car and really causing havoc with the engine. When I looked at some ultra high boost readings the car lurched HIGH into lean running as the secondary injecotr DC was not increased nor are they capable of delivering the fuel required. Again something chip makers could/would not tell me how the ECU determines the fuel for boost levels 'off the chart'. Draw your own conclusions.

Have a look inside, if you see this...

FS_GT3Chip_JamesThompson.jpg

...I'd start to get very friendly with someone with the original S4s code and a chip burner :lol:

This is also somethign I have been lobbying for ages - free release of the interigation file so we can look at the chip code - mainly becuase if you find your car IS chipped you're going to have to spend money getting it back to safe levels.

I'd also factor having an engine oil flush out becuase if the car was running that much boost the amount of air:fuel leaking past the piston rings into the oil has probably left it seriously contaminated. One thing chip makers neglect to tell you is the increase in boost pressure forces more past the piston rings during compression stage of the cylinder - if you've ever seen fuel/oil contamination (looks like full chunk branston pickle) you'll be making sure the oil changes are done twice as often.

One last tip - might be worth looking here :

http://www.lotusespritworld.com/owners_s4plus.html

Sometimes you can see your car and find out what the previous owner done to it.

On the flip side I have nothing against chips on the whole, if done properly they are fine and I do plan on chipping both my Esprits, when I can get a full answer on what the hell goes in the code and not "ummmmmm arrrrrr well..."

Edited by Jonathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, this is the chip

22052010380.jpg

Looks pretty standard to me ?????

Guess I am looking for a leak that doesn't manifest itself at 0.65BAR and then, when the pressure is up appears to scupper my boost. Unless someone has any other thoughts?

I had a look through, but my car aint on there unfortunately

ETA 16:15

off to purchase very high quality hose clips for inlet and actuator..............................

Edited by fesuvious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't have a clue on this chip - perhaps a call into Lotus would be in order ?

Could be one of the cranky ones that were being flogged on eBay a while back.

The original code should stop fuel if the boost goes too high, again not sure of the values but something doesn't feel right.

You can check the plumbing, as you say the join might hold pressure at 0.65 but leak at higher values. The wastegat solenoid might be leaking or sticking open, so that might be worth looking at - again compressor would make easy testing, jsut flash 12v across the terminals to check it's operation.

I used 3mm ID silicone tube off eBay for mine, cost next to nothing and grips like a mofo, you dont need hose clips at all - the 5mm stuff might be too big, you might well have a hose clip etc on it but leak past might be occuring. BUT again the chip should see this and cut back on the Wastegate DC to reduce the boost to safe levels.

Now you have the memcal out, I would try and see if you can get an original S4s Code burned onto a chip, shouldn't cost more than £15 to get done if someone nice enough on here can copy you the code from their car (done on Esprit mon iirc)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SailorBob, if you could quantify, and justify that claim then please do
The value that Freescan displays is meant to be in units of absolute bar. They are too high, Jonathan's graph shows this, and comparison with a Tech1 scanner shows this.

Freescan is displaying in the log file exactly what it's reading, but what it is reading is not a pressure it's a value. This value cannot be mistaken for the actual BAR reading.
No it isn't, Freescan is converting the MAP value to bar but its conversion is wrong. The ecu actually uses a whole decimal number with a range of 0 to 255 for its MAP value.

Andy Whittaker states his conversion for MAP as ((N-130)/100+1) and the units bar (where N is the aforementioned whole decimal number). You can also disprove this conversion by using it against the various values Lotus give for the error code routines and seeing that it doesn't work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AND SHE'S FIXED !!!!! DONE, SHE'S RIGHT.

So, let this be a lesson, check the obvious first. The simplest solution is often the right one.

Solenoid to wastegate pipe, sealed, when on mechanical boost, however, up the pressure and the seal, well, wasn't sealed.

10mm fuel pipe clips. Up VERY tight indeed. 

So, to recap on how I got here, just for anyone who searches in the future.

Car, slow

Owner, reads up and downloads freescan

Car has code 26, but no engine check light, car lumpy and not happy

Owner, doesn't realise that a knackered light would throw 26

Owner replaces wastegate solenoid, idle air control, throttle position sensor

Car still not right, owner thinks bout checking relays

Then finds that the engine check light don't work....... light has been butchered

Light fixed, code gone!

Car quicker, but still not right

Owner replaces wastegate actuator and sets boost for 0.65 via wastegate.

Then car overboosts like crazy

Owner removes and checks ECU for chip

Owner finds a £0.87p pipe clip fixes the fault

Still, I'ved learnt a load,  a huge amount, from great people on here (cough - Jonathan) and owner knows not to trust car dealer, even if it is Paul Matty if he says 'car's perfect'

So, eher is a freescan log, the interesting stuff is after row 1000. I know I have to wind a smidgen of boost off, and I will do when she's cooled down!

So, what shall I do next? Any ideas? ram air is done, exhaust is done, maybe steam clean underneath and think bout suspension and bushes eh?

again all redone22510.csv

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great news all is ok now,

like Jonathan said the 5 mm inner dia tube is too big. The wastegate actuator is controlled by pressure (and spring) from the manifold and not vacuum. What PROM ID number dit Freescan give, it should be easy to see what (orginal or not) chip is used. Just some things I coud think off. Have fun.

Freek

Edited by fjmuurling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done for fixing it., as you say, you now know a shit load more than before about the system and that's half the battle.

S4s sounds pretty much done, weather's good - go and drive the tits off it is what I'd recomend.

Seriously the S4s is pretty much the pinnacle of the 4 pot design outside the track focused cars which is why they command the highest prices on average (some more than the V8 !)

If the car runs and feels good then just keep truckin !

You could always dump valve and fit an oil catch tank, those would be on my list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, oil catch tank, Good Idea. I like the idea of cleaning up the quality of the intake air.

I was wondering if changing all the injectors for some higher quality units might be an idea too? 

The injectors might have to wait a little bit though as funds are very low right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll let you know, mine should arrive and be fitted this week.

I was planning on doing a video of them to show the difference in idle but not sure how much difference they make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you believe what PUK write then chances are they'll make a noticeable difference.

From my perspective: Id say that injectors this old in design, and indeed old in age cannot be in the best of health.

Surely to get better response and performace, and indeed hopefully some free torque the injectors would be the place to start?

Of course, one problem later down the line..... if that works, then you might wanna get more air in.. and I haven't seen ANY sort of decent idea for that beyond dermot (?) enlarging the port into the air box. However, how do you calculate the maximum air flow the turbo can receive anyway? Theres no point flowing 'x' litres of air if the turbo can only digest 'y'.

Think Il make my next move steam cleaning the underside and mechanicals and having a good look over. 

Hey, how do you get the centre caps out of the OZ wheels? Prise them out? I haven't even had the wheels off her yet!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the bolts will have a flower-type recess, that's the 'locking' one which holds the centre cap in place, the others are just fakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Bibs !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×