free hit
counters
Sacreligious? - Page 2 - Lotus / Motoring / Cars Chat - The Lotus Forums #ForTheOwners Jump to content


Sacreligious?


Recommended Posts

I never heard of any belt problems with the Chrysler Turbo III :lol:

turboIII.jpg

I just read up on the Turbo III and again If it is incorrectly Installed/Tensioned it will skip(like all belts will) Sorry, they arent idiot proof! :)

Wasn't so much the belts - the valve springs were far to strong for the application and increased the load on the belts no matter how they were installed. And Lotus put cast iron frost plugs in the heads instead of aluminum. As they expanded at different rates, the plugs tend to pop out and puke the coolant all over the hot turbo, causing all sorts of lovely drama.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.
  • Replies 45
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I remember when the Spirit R/T (which used that Turbo III motor)was unveiled in Italy, and used as a chase car when the Lamborghini Diablo was also introduced.

Yes its valvesprings are stiff(for high RPM) :)

Dunno about cast iron frostplugs though :lol:

SUNP0003-1.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

man...it is like buying a Lamborghini Countach kit car with Chevy V8 in the back.

It would be a joke here to do this (people would scream things like poor guy buying fake cars)

I cannot imagine someone use a RX-7 or even a RX-8 as a body and put whatever they want to it.

**and I think it's even worser than the Countach kit car

(at least the Countach kit car has a full "new " engineering in chasis/body design (+ hand built).  although it looks like the original Countach)

there have been many times that I think about the alternative of owning a Countach kit car...but the culture here just won't accept kit cars.

As for my Esprit

I would like to keep the Lotus Engine, but I plan to upgrade the parts and bits..

(like installing the turbo kit from WC engineering, and to install oil catch tank, BOV, electric coolant pump, new upgrade clutch, upgrade in Transmission, and may be the ECU)

but no way, I would take out the engine and put a FORD V8 in it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WHAT IS WORSER THAN USING THE WORD WORSER

Though i do agre with your points...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its definately a tradeoff - race engines have awesome performance, but they're usually changed out more often than most people change their oil in daily drivers.

I'm planning on aquiring an 'okay' Esprit to play around with for now, get to know the car in real-world terms (as opposed to all the book knowledge I've gained from drooling over photos and articles about the car since the late 80's) then aquiring a pristine one. That said (and I might be setting myself up for a high intensity flaming for posting this) I wouldn't be against replacing the 80s tech Lotus 4 banger with a Porsche engine and tranny, or a chipped Renesis with cat-free exhaust and Tiptronic tranny.

Fuji Heavy Industries (aka Subaru) does make nice engines, and through their brief GM ties there's a loose connection to Lotus, but I've some concerns about their somewhat wide boxer fitting into an Esprit frame. The advantage of the Renesis is 250hp in a small package - a bolt-in swap that wouldn't involve hacking the car to pieces, but would offer get-in-and-go everyday reliability - at 9,000 RPM :)

Some of you may have heard rotaries are unreliable - in N/A form, which the Renesis is, that's not exactly true. The main problem with the previous 13B-REW, available only as a twin turbo, was the heat from the already-hot engine combined with the heat from a dual stage 2 turbo system in a small, cramped engine compartment. The engines literally cook themselves to death, if the apex seals don't fail under boost first.

Edited by Manntis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fuji Heavy Industries (aka Subaru) does make nice engines, and through their brief GM ties there's a loose connection to Lotus,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very loose connection...

those GM days werent seen as Lotus' greatest...

Shah

My Beautiful Car http://www.glcforum.com/ukesprit/forums/in...CODE=12&CID=182

...

ribbon200.gifProud to be a G-car ownerribbon200.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me I have no problem per se as racers did it all the time - chassis, tranny and engine were always distinct and interchangeable. However for provinence I choose to stick with Lotus and like the history of the twin cam whcih is long an illustrous whereas the V8s led a short life and only now lives on in AC Cobras and a few other kit cars, whcih is disappointing given superior spec and good tuning ability. Lotus was all about chassis and then made use of the best engine tech available at the time.. bar obviously their magic with heads - nee Lotus-Ford twin cam, Vette ZR1 4v per cyclinder head etc

For me I love nothing more than starting sth that sounds like a stage 2 Lotus Cortina and then you get the added buzz form the turbo.. It makes a great contrast to my tuned ZM which is all smooth big cube straight six..

Edited by M Blur

It's alive.. alive!!!..

altimeter.gifsai.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the '50's, Lotus offered a choice of engines for most of their cars such as a side-valve Ford to a Coventry Climax. None of these engines was made by Lotus, so they weren't above engine swaps themselves.

Don't think a Wankel marches the Lotus philosophy of efficiency. The reason the exhaust gets so hot is that the combustion is so bad. But they are small and light.

I sometimes fantasize about putting an NSX engine and transmission into an S3 but I have no idea if it would fit. Would be reliable, go really well and sound lovely.

S4 Elan, Elan +2S, Federal-spec, World Championship Edition S2 Esprit #42, S1 Elise, Excel SE

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't think a Wankel marches the Lotus philosophy of efficiency.  The reason the exhaust gets so hot is that the combustion is so bad.  But they are small and light.

Actually the reason the exhaust gets so hot is there are 3 combustion events per revolution, as opposed to 1 combustion event per 2 revolutions in a boinger ;) And as to efficiency, a rotary has 3 moving parts - no valves, cams, valve guides, timing chains or belts, etc. - and loves high RPMs.

Their main design weakness is low torque. The eccentric shaft (the rotary equivalent of a crank shaft) has a small offset compared to a crank, and normally aspirated rotaries tend to have the torque of a Honda.

Another thing is oil changes. Rotaries don't slowly shred themselves to death, so the oil stays looking relatively clear and new-looking, even after thousands of kms of driving. This lulls people with little rotary experience into a false sense of security and they keep driving the car without changing the oil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well owning a honda civic, I plan on swapping my stupid y15 motor for a b16A2 or b18C1 or B18c5(type r motor)! its not such a bad thing but I think it should be kept in the family brand name.. Honda for a Honda .. not a Honda for a Toyota!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me any engine swop has to also consider the transaxle. Not a lot of options there unless cost is not a consideration. The Lotus/Renault one is fine but I wouldn't like to break it. The only mass produced ones these days that could be used are Audi and Subaru. Plus there's the availabilty of 6 speeds.

And both companies attach engines that are high in the design and quality stakes. My preference is Subaru. Mainly because there is a lot of aftermarket parts, support and knowledge for them here in oz. Nowhere near the same for Audi. If I was in Europe there is more support for Audi which could inflence me that way. My experience when modifying engines has been easier with jap, US or indigenous ones than British or European because of the distance and smaller market for them here.

Also like the idea of a turbo 20B (triple rotor) rotary. There's a reasonable amount support for them in oz too.

DanR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Call me a conservative or purist, but I dislike all engine swaps and aftermarket mods. If a car lacks performance, handling, or whatever, I'll buy a car that does offer what I'm looking for.

-Dave

All Cows Eat Grass

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually the reason the exhaust gets so hot is there are 3 combustion events per revolution, as opposed to 1 combustion event per 2 revolutions in a boinger ;) And as to efficiency, a rotary has 3 moving parts - no valves, cams, valve guides, timing chains or belts, etc. - and loves high RPMs.

Their main design weakness is low torque. The eccentric shaft (the rotary equivalent of a crank shaft) has a small offset compared to a crank, and normally aspirated rotaries tend to have the torque of a Honda.

Another thing is oil changes. Rotaries don't slowly shred themselves to death, so the oil stays looking relatively clear and new-looking, even after thousands of kms of driving. This lulls people with little rotary experience into a false sense of security and they keep driving the car without changing the oil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll chime in here a little before we form too many myths on the rotary, been a Mazda Rotary tech for 11 years now so:

Actually, the main reason the gasses are so hot is the flame front is about 3 times the length of a piston engine's, and the propogation of the kernel is accelerated by 2 spark events.(lead and trail spark plugs) Add in about 30% more fuel and 270degrees of combustion vs 180degrees and you have about 650C idle egt's. At full song at 15psi expect to see about 850C! You can make up torque in a Rotary by adding a turbo or two (hot egt =nice spool characteristics) very easily.

Finally, rotaries actually have about 50% more metal to metal contact than normal piston engines as the sides of the rotors contact the front, rear and intermediate plates throughout their lives(think sandwich here) so if the oil is clean it's not circulating correctly. Remember, the oil in a rotary does about 40% of the cooling, it's going thru every internal part of the engine including the rotors(inside the rotors actually) as well as into the combustion chambers themselves, this is part of the reason they are so inefficient and people think they are like 2 cycle engines. Anyway, I think that should clarify a few things.

Artie

89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll chime in here a little before we form too many myths on the rotary, been a Mazda Rotary tech for 11 years now so:

You can make up torque in a Rotary by adding a turbo or two (hot egt =nice spool characteristics) very easily. 

Easily? Nope. Folks turboing their 12As and 13Bs sepend as much as $10,000 to do it properly. The reason there was a J-spec 12A Turbo, but North America got a 13B N/a instead in the later FB was because Japan had many rotary shops to repair the cars when the apex seals failed, whereas in North America most people - including technicians - didn't know what a rotary was.

As I said earlier in this very thread: "The main problem with the previous 13B-REW, available only as a twin turbo, was the heat from the already-hot engine combined with the heat from a dual stage 2 turbo system in a small, cramped engine compartment. The engines literally cook themselves to death, if the apex seals don't fail under boost first."

if the oil is clean it's not circulating correctly.

I didn't say 'the oil is clean' I said 'the oil stays looking relatively clear and new-looking' - which is why many non-rotorheads who drive rotary powered cars take far too long between oil changes.

Edited by Manntis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Easily? Nope. Folks turboing their 12As and 13Bs sepend as much as $10,000 to do it properly. The reason there was a J-spec 12A Turbo, but North America got a 13B N/a instead in the later FB was because Japan had many rotary shops to repair the cars when the apex seals failed, whereas in North America most people - including technicians - didn't know what a rotary was.

As I said earlier in this very thread: "The main problem with the previous 13B-REW, available only as a twin turbo, was the heat from the already-hot engine combined with the heat from a dual stage 2 turbo system in a small, cramped engine compartment. The engines literally cook themselves to death, if the apex seals don't fail under boost first."

I didn't say 'the oil is clean' I said 'the oil stays looking relatively clear and new-looking' - which is why many non-rotorheads who drive rotary powered cars take far too long between oil changes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My comment about turboeing was from a manufacturer perspective, not individual. Yes, the engines do run very hot, but many of the REW engines were replaced unduly because of perceived failure, however, it wasn't the engine that blew, it was any of the 70+ vacuum hoses under the plenum that had blown off. North America's problem was that Mazda didn't properly train the techs to work on the REW or it's OVERLY complex twinturbo system. Many cars were abused and subsequently died from this abuse and lack of routine maintenance.

As for the oil looking clean, this is still a problem, the oil in a rotary does get hot and is responsible for picking up carbon and dirt as in any engine, so unless there is a problem with the wax circulating thermal pellet or the pump pickup, it should turn dark and dirty after normal use, as well as the engine consuming oil and the regular need to top up the sump/pan to account for the usage.

I'm not in here to discredit anyone so please don't take offense, I just thought I'd add to the topic with accurate information.

Cheers

Artie

89 White Esprit SE

...a few little upgrades....

93 RX7.....Silverstone

....slightly modded...Muahaha...

New Addition:

1990 300ZX TT......Hmmm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always been quite facinated by the Wankel Rotarys since the NSU RO80 was introduced. ;)

General Motors and Mercedes -Benz also were heavyly involved with these engines in the 60s (GM were to install it in the Vega) It was touted as the engine of the future(rather like the Gas Turbine before it)

But my hats off to the Mazda people, they stuck with it and succeeded to make it usable and relyable on a daily basis.(Starting with the Cosmo I think)

I drove a RX8 a few times last year, and was very impressed by this car, its a fun car to drive!

Have also helped a bit with a Spice-Tiga Mazda GTP car (owned by same guy as the RX8)

The only thing I dont like about the rotary, is its exhaust note when run unsilenced :lol:

Bertone%20NSU%20RO80.jpg

xx_xx_main_img_1_1.jpg

c111b.jpg

Edited by WayneB
SUNP0003-1.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the rotary has always facinated me. I would love to build one in a future project but im weary of mixing them with turbos from the stuff that i have heard. i know a guy with a 13b-powered Porsche 914 that hauls like you wouldnt imagine...

Shah

My Beautiful Car http://www.glcforum.com/ukesprit/forums/in...CODE=12&CID=182

...

ribbon200.gifProud to be a G-car ownerribbon200.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mazda quite brilliantly elected to tune the engine, not bolt on new turboes, when their engineers (principally on their own time!) created the Renesis 13B. In normally aspirated form it can reliably put out 250hp+ all day long - the lower hp quoted in the RX-8 are a result of having to tweak fuel use to meet catalytic converter lifespan regulations (hotter exhaust, remember?)

Mazda is playing around with a supercharged Renesis, but whenever we bug them for info on it we get 'no comment'

An unmuffled rotary sounds like a lawnmoweer that's mad at the world, but one with a proper exhaust can be music to the ears :) Of course, that's subjective...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



Upgrade today to remove Google ads and support TLF.


×
×
  • Create New...