Small hole in exhaust manifold

[98GT3]

I have a small hole in my exhaust manifold (GT3 45,000m) it's about the size of a pin, but I cant see a crack. Is this how they usually manifest themselves, or is this something different? I would like to hear from anyone that has any advice or views on replacing the manifold, either myself or garage. I read somewhere that the later Esprits used stainless studs and nuts to the head, is this right? There is a pretty conprehensive guide to removal here http://black89lotus.com/fiftyone.html which makes it sound resonably straight forward, if a little cramped. Any advice will be very welcome!

98GT3

Edited March 24, 2006 by 98GT3

[Jonathan]

Sorry to hear about your problems.

Superdave will be able to help here - he's only recently done one on an S4...exactly the same (sure he will post here if not drop him a line). Can be done in situ but it's very cramped in there.

As for stainless, not 100% sure but I'd lean away from them unless they are proven to be OK at the specific temperature.

General purpose stainless does not have the same properties as mild steels in this case and tends to yeild at lower temperatures, considering the manifold actually glows red hot (well mine does anyways).

Personally I don't see the benefit of it either, if the jobs done propperly the studs / nuts shouldn't seize, it's not a service item either that you're going to be taking on and off.

Edited March 23, 2006 by Jonathan

[Vulcan Grey]

Sorry to hear about your problems.

Superdave will be able to help here - he's only recently done one on an S4...exactly the same (sure he will post here if not drop him a line).  Can be done in situ but it's very cramped in there.

As for stainless, not 100% sure but I'd lean away from them unless they are proven to be OK at the specific temperature.

General purpose stainless does not have the same properties as mild steels in this case and tends to yeild at lower temperatures, considering the manifold actually glows red hot (well mine does anyways).

Personally I don't see the benefit of it either, if the jobs done propperly the studs / nuts shouldn't seize, it's not a service item either that you're going to be taking on and off.

Huh?

They are all Stainless, stainless studs, stainless nuts... Even my 89SE

There is really no strength requirement for the nuts and studs from the manifold to the head. No worry about them yielding or breaking. There are 12 of them holding eachother together, and the torque is only 14ft-lb.

Since everything in your country rusts, I would think you'd definitely want stainless... My head studs have never seized and can easily be loosened.

BTW I'm the one that taught Tony (black89Lotus how to remove his manifold...) If you have the right tools it can be fairly easy. The turbo nuts are the most difficult due to access. For the head stud nuts lay under the car sideways. And bend the locking tabs so that they arent touching the nuts. Or sometimes you can get a socket on the nut just enough to spin it so the locking tabs spread out.

I can do it in about 1 hr if the turbo nuts don't cause me too much problem. I can put it back in in 1/2 hr.

Usually there is a crack. You might go around and make sure that all the nuts are tight, and see if your exhaust leak noise goes away. They often get loose, I often see Esprits missing 2-4 ehaust studs, cause they just fell out.

[Jonathan]

My mistake, I checked against the parts list and they usually state stainless steel by the side of it. I'll have a peek at mine on the car tomorrow, as a matter of fact I do recall them being a bit shiney.

Suprised tbh - in my experience of welding stainless I've always found it to go a bit sloppy and at high temperatures, I wouldn't have thought after heat soak it'd be upto the job considering the weight / vibration. IIRC thats the reason why the manifold itself couldn't be made from stainless due to poor structural properties at high temperature.

The old mans E-Type head is ali and the fasteners on there arn't stainless - thats about 40 years old, we had no probs taking them off a year or so back

Good page btw - I know Kato was after something similar for LEW.

Keep us informed on how it goes, as you can see it's something I need to tackle some point in the near future.

[superdavelotus]

Hi there, sorry to hear about the bad news. If you have a small hole in your manifold then chances are it's where the casting is machined for the studs and space for the nuts. Due to the manifold being cast, there is a chance that there is more metal on one side than other. I this case when it's machined then it only takes a backfire to blow a hole where the thinest part is. You can weld this up PROVIDED it's not cracked.

This has been done insitu many times with sucess.

Failing this then it's manifold removal Iam afraid. It took me about 12-16 hours but I am not a mechanic and I did this in my lunch hours etc (stop/starting).

I think there is a guide on LEW, quite a good one!

I would try welding, you have nothing to lose!!!

I wouldn't do another manifold again, it was a pain and lots of skin off knuckles!

Dave Walters

I have a small hole in my exhaust manifold (GT3 45,000m)    it's about the size of a pin, but I cant see a crack. Is this how they usually manifest themselves, or is this something different? I would like to hear from anyone that has any advice or views on replacing the manifold, either myself or garage. I read somewhere that the later Esprits used stainless studs and nuts to the head, is this right? There is a pretty conprehensive guide to removal here http://black89lotus.com/fiftyone.html  which makes it sound resonably straight forward, if a little cramped. Any advice will be very welcome!

98GT3

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[98GT3]

Many thanks for the replies so far, I think I will try and take a picture and post it here so you can see exactly what it looks like. It is pretty accessable for welding if it is just a hole........I can hope!

If I do need to replace it, I would be very interested what the right tools are for the job. To take it off in 1 hour is pretty good going, I assume that you dont need to disconnect the engine mounts etc. as is often described, and does the boot floor need to come out? I understand that if it is done frequently then the bolts etc. will not be so much of a problem especially on the turbo.

Now wheres that camera!

Edited March 24, 2006 by 98GT3

[Jonathan]

Is that a picture of Mars ? LOL

I think I see the hole (top right) how bizzar, never seen anything like that - I reakon Dave could be right with a spot of weld on it might help you out for the time being. It's on the closest port to the back of the car it's probably the easiest to get to.

Just a side (dunno what the experts think of this) but I was always under the impression to remove that skaggy rust as it traps air around the manifold hindering cooling, air being a good insulator of heat. For what it's worth mine looked exactly like that btw.

Hope all goes well.

[AJay]

What do you think?

Edited March 24, 2006 by AJay

[pitstoppete]

wanting one of them mate.

[AJay]

wanting one of them mate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me Tooooooooo.

its not mine unfortunately, the pic comes from the AQUAMIST web page.

Tryed to contact the owner a few years back but the e-mail that AQUAMIST gave me did not work.

Ill have to keep dreaming.

[Simon350S]

What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very nice.

Whos car? How much for the maifold??

[ebaybrad]

does the crack in the manifold make the car run like crap and sound like it also? How excactly did it manifest itself? Or did you just notice the damage when it was in the air

[98GT3]

Have a look at my photo in post #6, it doesn't seem to be a crack rather than a hole. I thought that boost was down and I could hear a small blowing sound on tickover. I thought it was a joint on the exhaust first of all, but tracked it down to the hole. I managed to get the picture by shoving my camera under the car and merrily clicking away not really knowing what I was taking pictures of. I incidentally got some great pictures of the turbo bolt threads which look in really nice condition, just the thing if I have to replace the manifold!

[Vulcan Grey]

Very nice.

Whos car? How much for the maifold??

That manifold is on Burt Waite's '93 Esprit.

Stainless steel is fine, you just can't use it to support the weight of the turbo... You'd need a large bracket to hold the turbo.

Burt's car makes probably over 600hp. He did everything himself. I've heard that he will do all that to your car as a package, but he will not do individual pieces. Has to be a whole package.

He is in Arizona.

[Vulcan Grey]

Have a look at my photo in post #6, it doesn't seem to be a crack rather than a hole. I thought that boost was down and I could hear a small blowing sound on tickover. I thought it was a joint on the exhaust first of all, but tracked it down to the hole. I managed to get the picture by shoving my camera under the car and merrily clicking away not really knowing what I was taking pictures of. I incidentally got some great pictures of the turbo bolt threads which look in really nice condition, just the thing if I have to replace the manifold!

Looks like your manifold is beyond saving. the part where the hole developed looks very thin. the edges of the hole could just flake away. I would replace that rust bucket, before you get a chip of rust thrown at your turbo at 130,000rpm, it will be destroyed.

[WayneB]

Phil , the Titanic is less rusty than that manifold

I would remove it, have it sandblasted, and if it looks O.K. get it welded.

I had the wastegate manifold welded on my car(by a good welder) and ita been fine.

It also saved me $700 doing it that way.

Here is a pic of a stainless manifold made by a fab shop in Michigan for a 910 (one off not for sale)

[98GT3]

Phil , the Titanic is less rusty than that manifold

I would remove it, have it sandblasted, and if it looks O.K. get it welded.

I had the wastegate manifold welded on my car(by a good welder) and ita been fine.

It also saved me $700 doing it that way.

As it happens, I do have a Guyson bead blasting cabinet! trouble is do I go to the time and expense of taking it off and new gaskets etc. to have it let me down again? or do I go for the new manifold, and then do I go for the Lotus or SWLC one - pro's and con's, anyone know? I want to make the right decision not necessarily the cheapest one.

Can anyone (Vulcan grey, SuperDave, anyone!?) tell me which are the most suited tools for the job and exactly what needs to be removed, if the operator is skilled and very flexible

Many thanks for the replies so far!

[Vulcan Grey]

Can anyone (Vulcan grey, SuperDave, anyone!?) tell me which are the most suited tools for the job and exactly what needs to be removed, if the operator is skilled and very flexible 

Many thanks for the replies so far!

Tools you'll need.

1)I think the nuts are 12mm (might be 13mm), so you need a open end wrench, box end, I like the "gera wrenches" sometimes.

2)also need a 12mm socket and extension on a ratchet (preferably a 1/4" drive small ratchet.

3) you need to remove the heat shields (10mm wrench and ratchet)

4)also need a long punch or flat head screwdriver to pound back the locking tabs.

5) a hammer.

6) maybe a flexible snake driver socket extension would be helpfull?

I find it easier to lay under the car, across it with my head infront of the left rear wheel, and my feet infront of the right rear wheel.

The turbo nuts are difficult.

You'll need to remove the wheel and the heat shield.

put some penetrating oil on the nuts before hand.

Use a breaker bar on a wrench, and slowly try to loosen the nuts, while guiding the wrench with the other hand to keep it from slipping off the nut.

You'll also need to raise turbo up as you loosen the nuts, or else the nut will get stuck against the turbine housing.

It may be easier to remove the rear trunk floor to access the turbo nuts.

[Vulcan Grey]

I doubt the exhaust manifold is slavagable. It looks paper thin near that hole, and probably elsewhere.

[PRW007]

I just wanted to offer this suggestion. I have had three Esprit, all had a manifold crack at some point. Each time a well intentioned shop tried to weld it up, which at best worked for a very short time. Eventually I found this place that specializes on CAST IRON WELDING ONLY! You have to send it to them, but the work was impeccable, and has lasted 12,000 miles, most of them very hard. I think I paid something like $125 to have it done. I HIGHLY reccomend them if and when your manifold cracks. The way they explained it to me is that you have to get the cast iron (the whole part) up to something like 1,500' before welding it for the process to work, NOT just super heat it up in the area of repair. Good luck!

http://www.locknstitch.com/