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Goodbye Harriers, Ark Royal and Nimrod

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What I am of course keen on is defence of the UK and our way of life here on the islands - and clearly see a need to deal with threats to that. Nowadays, I'm being won over to the idea that much of that is more vulnerable to cyber attack and that we're more defendable against terrorism by getting better intelligence than I am in having a bigger gun than johnny foreigner. (We can leave that to our friends across the pond :respect: )

S'alright...apparently my country just positively LIVES for that sort of thing...


"If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's electrical." -somebody's dad

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TSR2 got cancelled because they couldn't cancel Concorde...the contracts were similar to the present ones for the carriers, inasmuch as it would have cost more to cancel than to continue. F111 was a genuine dog; we ended up with the Banana Jet...the Buccaneer! Which had already been turned down by the RAF...which had led to the TSR2...and round and round we go. The whole cancellation fever was because the treasury had told the government that we were going to run out of money....and loans from the World Bank/IMF thingy had to be agreed by the Americans...who said "Cancel Concorde!!". When that wasn't possible, the TSR 2 got shafted instead. The whole sad story was recounted by Tony Benn, who kept daily diaries and then tapes....as he said, the worst part was that the treasury was wrong, and we were trading ourselves out of the debt problem and didn't need to borrow the money in the first place.....

Rifles and ammunition...never have had a useful standard. I recall the Nato Standard 7.62mm round.....then all the Warsaw Pact nations standardised on 7.63!!! Thus they could use any of our ammo they might capture...but theirs was useless to us!!

One can argue that it would be cheaper to be a client state and simply buy American kit. Thing is, having a home brewed aeroplane industry means that the money spent on procurement STAYS IN OUR ECONOMY and provides jobs and taxes and expertise HERE...not for the people at Boeings or ..or...... aren't they ALL Boeing by now??!!


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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LOL 7.63 - the bastards !

What I meant was you still have contracts and companies but kit is made to the same spec as each other and same QA but under licence - same as the AV8B harrier and stuff.

We already do that with JSF. Apache is the example of we buy something from the yanks, spend money frigging with it and then when they're out of service or need new ones they simply cannot move over resources from one to another. We cant fly theirs and they cant fly ours which is the same issue we had with the chinooks. It's crazy this happens between staunch allies - I know JSF is supposed to resolve this issue - all aircraft were supposed to be identical from what I heard when I worked on it during my time at BAE, whether thats the case now I dont know but it makes perfect sense to do things this way around and pool our resources as opposed to segmeting them.

BAE systems / Royal Ordinance / HK / Lockheed etc can still have their companies in their respective contries but make parts for a common machine - they kind of do it now (see Tornado / Typhoon construction) but it's not wide spread enough.

NATO should stand for something a bit more than it does now - face it NATO is really just us and the Yanks, the inclusion of other countries is probably more to do with the facilitation of their airspace and territory / safe havens.

Rumor has it the Army is going to get a new rifle sometime soon (yeah right) and the SA80 A2 (as much as I like it , it is a pain in the ass) will be phased out, the Yanks M16 / M4 is getting old now and its about time that us and the yanks sat down and sorted out a common service rifle and not the cluster fk which was the L86A1 or the LSW that no bugger uses anymore.


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I work for BAE Systems and half the guys in my building work on Nimrod.

I fortunately work on Tornado (which is OK for a few years but not 2025 as planned)

Suffice to say it's not a happy place at the moment...

I was also an RAF Engineering Officer on a Tornado F3 Squadron too.

Sad days but not much in it really, there is no money left to pay for it all anymore.

Govt procurement has also been rubbish hence the penalty contracts in place preventing cancellation of the carriers (And Eurofighter!)

What happens to Nimrod is currently unknown there are 6 in production at the moment and a couple development aircraft flying at the moment....

Anyone want one? Delivery miles only... 1950's vintage so no tax...

Edited by Rich H

Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress

Porsche 924 Turbo - Parts chaser

Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

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Has anyone checked on Kimbers? Is he OK?

:unsure:

This is a proper 'Goverment/country going down the pan/ decline of a great nation' thread and he's not here, which makes me worry as he loves this stuff.

He's not with Jon as he's found his way here fine. Can someone ring his phone and see if there is an answer please? The man could be curled up at the bottom of the stairs or something.

Ahem...

'CRACKLE'

"KIMBERS TO THE CURRENT 'STATE OF THINGS' THREAD PLEASE, KIMBERS TO 'STATE OF THINGS' THREAD, THANK YOU"

'CLICK'

:D

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If we could afford a proper welfare system there would be somebody to go round and check that he's ok..

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Rich - small world,

I used to do Tornado laser pods :D

Had to fly all the way to Edinburgh to sort out their archaic test machines up there - boring as hell.

Later I worked mainly on Typhoon and C17.

Paul, I see you found your trolling ass here as well :lol:

Now eff off and let us be gloomy in our own gloomy pit - dont you have some place to be ?

To the harrier :cheers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11584481

Edited by Jonathan

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I thought Harriers were coming to the end of there service life along with Tornados? Is the eurofighter not the replacement for the Torrnado and the Harrier being replaced by an American VTOL?

My mate is working on the new carriers, he is involved in the new mast systems, huge chunks of these vessels are already built, So I doubted they would scarp them.

Goverments ALWAYS find money for war.


Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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By the way, although we're scrapping the Harrier we're ordering more than planned JSF's!

If I were a soldier in 'Stan I know what I'd like to see buzzing about above me!

Lockheed_F-35_Joint_Strike_Fighter.jpg


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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Not the story we have been told....

JSF STOVOL version has been binned, we are buying the carrier version instead and cut the numbers to 40 JSF total...

One of the new carriers has a normal war compliment of 40 jets, but at any one time 1/3 of them will be in maintenance...

Typhoon is the replacement for Tornado, but it has a whole list of problems... Tornado had the same problems but had them 30 years ago...

We have Tornados, we have the crews, we have the experience - you what mud moving - you want a British crewed Tornado.

JSF won't be in service until 2018 or something.. we 'should' be out of Afghanistan by then (Maybe) Typhoon full multi role wont be for years either, so might get involved, in the meantime Tornado is flying many combat sorties a day.

We fight asymmetric wars nowadays, no nation vs nation, no fighter/fighter engagements, no stand up fights.

We need good reliable bombers that is not Typhoon, JSF or Harrier at the moment... but I'm a Tornado man :thumbsup:

Don't forget too that Typhoon and F35 are the last new manned combat aircraft design you will ever see...

Manned flight is so last decade...

Edited by Rich H

Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress

Porsche 924 Turbo - Parts chaser

Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

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I heard this too, the VTOL versions are being binned for catapult launch right ?

UAVs ....you reakon ? I think there will always be a pilot, like there will always have paper maps.

I do catch your lyrics about UAVs though, I just think in a tactical situation the pilots skill and thinking will overcome any effect of the flesh that happen up there.

and if I ever get there, I'd rather have this above me........

article-0-0056FDA700000258-562_634x414.jpg

Its that bastard cannon that's so effective - heard some amazing tales of people who have witnessed it.

See them little sticks poking out of the engine nacells ? We used to make them :)


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My mate is working on the new carriers, he is involved in the new mast systems,

I know there has been great advancement in wind propulsion technology, but a whole aircraft carrier? :shock:


Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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UCAVs are the new fast jets.

Look up TARANIS up until recently it was one of the 'black projects' at work. Nasty bit of kit.

BAES are developing autonomous UAVs, not radio control, but fully robotic....! And fully scary....


Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress

Porsche 924 Turbo - Parts chaser

Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

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Look up TARANIS

Proper scary! :stuart:

http://www.brochceoban.org/gallery.html

Taranis.jpg


88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

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I know there has been great advancement in wind propulsion technology, but a whole aircraft carrier? :shock:

yes it's going to an eco warrior, boom, boom.

No the comunication masts


Amateurs built the Ark

Professionals built the Titanic

"I haven't ridden in cars pulled by cows before" "Bullocks, Mr.Belcher" "No, I haven't, honestly"

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Speak softly and carry a big stick........!!


Scientists investigate that which already is; Engineers create that which has never been." - Albert Einstein

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:lol: I think I know him....

I was actually thinking of this:

taranis.jpg

Edited - thanks!

Edited by Rich H

Lotus Esprit S4 - Work in progress

Porsche 924 Turbo - Parts chaser

Smart Roadster Coupe - Hers

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You put the URL in twice, needs an edit.


Life is like a sewer, what you get out of it, depends on what you put into it. (Tom Leahrer)

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Starting to sound like half of us on the board worked for GEC Avionics/ Marconi/ BAE Systems at Rochester at some point or other in time. Used to work in ISD & Test back in the 80's on the SCADC systems and such.

Interesting thread guys, you should track weapons systems and their funding in the good old US of A, the numbers are staggering and the decisions and results are just crazy at times. At least the UK stuff is smaller scale and you get some of the benefits from global cost reductions and higher numbers of units manufactured. There are a number of plants I visited when at GEC here in the US that were huge and are now just derelict barns just like in Europe, it seems to be a trend with the changing global warfare model.


Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss. Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by the Italians.

You make something idiotproof, they'll make a better idiot

You think professional is expensive, just wait until you pay for amateur.

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All fine and well, until an adversary figures out how to jam the signal to control a UCAV. Remember that the drones in use over Pak/Afghan are not autonomous when used for attack, a human is in control, and actually fires a missile once another human has confirmed the target. And even then, they don't always get it right. Autonomous attack capability is a long way off, if for no other reason than what could happen if it goes wrong. And it will go wrong.

If the RN is going with the naval and not STOVL version of the F35, that would explain retiring the short deck carriers - the naval variant needs a full/angled flight deck to land. In the end, the naval variant with a new carrier might be cheaper, especially considering the high Harrier losses during training - it's a tricky little beast to fly. How long would 40 STOVL F35's have lasted during training?

The aircraft carrier has proven to be a very effective foreign policy tool. Just parking a carrier off of an offensive nation's coast is a very visible symbol, it lets them know that you're capable of raining all sorts of bad things down on them, on very short notice. And remember the Falklands - it wasn't the value of that pile of rocks, it's what the other tinpot dictator nations might have done had the UK let that blatant act of aggression stand. They're like jackals - they'd have been attacking UK interests at every opportunity, just for prestige reasons, if they thought that there wouldn't be any military response. Without on the site air support, the RN probably couldn't have taken the island back.

Are carriers a cost efficient approach? There's no way to establish how many small wars have been prevented by carriers, but it is known that they have prevented conflicts from starting. One thing is for sure: they're a lot cheaper than actually fighting a war, both from a monetary and especially a human life perspective.

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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88 Esprit NA, 89 Esprit Turbo SE, Evora, Evora S, Evora IPS, Evora S IPS, Evora S IPS SR, Evora 400, Elise S1, Elise S1 111s, Evora GT410 Sport

Evora NA

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The real reason for all these cuts is that Cameron reckons we must all share the pain so no cash, he could save a lot more if HMS VICTORY WAS RECOMMMISSIONED, she would present as much threat to our enemies as an aircraft carrier without aircraft, ie none, but would do a great job of flying the flag around the world. Such a visionary move should also please, to the point of involuntary orgasm, the minister for climate change, Huhne and his lunatic supporters, because there would not be any carbon emissions,Victory would use only that great panacea, wind power, the devotion to which by our politicans will surely see the lights go out.

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Popped down to the Dockyard today and joined the back of the two and half hour queue to have a quick nose round Ark Royal as she says goodbye. She was open for the weekend and they were expecting around 5-6000 visitors. They got that on just the Saturday. Was a touch chilly but well worth the wait.

BBC clicky

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Final Harrier flypast of Downing Street. Helps if you squint or look from an angle.

post-42-0-69886600-1296765155.jpg

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